Once saved always saved?

[Moose75]

Hello everyone, I posted this on other forums and have not had one reply. I figured I would get one here so feel free to explain.

If you believe in eternal security please refute these scriptures.

1.)Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. (Rev 3:4)

All the other people in the church at Sardis did soil their spiritual clothes and were no longer worthy to walk with Jesus dressed in white. How did the majority, who were previously saved, get soiled?

2.) Do not lay hands on anyone hastily, nor share in other people"™s sins; keep yourself pure. 1 Timothy 5:22

Paul believed Timothy could become spiritually defiled again through sin and consequently told Timothy to keep himself pure. That would be meaningless, if Timothy would turn to sin and automatically be pre-forgiven. Paul (and others) were repeatedly teaching like this, even to the point of telling Christians they could die spiritually through sin and not inherit the kingdom of God:

3.)For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live (Rom 8:13)

4.)but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. Don"™t be deceived, my dear brothers. (James 1:14-16)

5.)The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. Some have wandered away from these and turned to meaningless talk. (1 Tim 1:5,6)

This scripture shows that the Apostle Paul knew of some who wandered away from a pure heart. In other words, sin can adversely affect a pure heart. This would be impossible if their future sins were already forgiven.

6.)But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. (Mat 5:28,29)

Jesus taught openly that sin can drag any lustful person to hell or was that "anyone" that wasn't a Christian?

7.)If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. (Heb 10:26, 27)

Anyone care to explain this scripture?

8.)The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers (Gal. 6:8-10).

If we can't lose our salvation what is that "if" for and If we do give up what happens to us?

[FroMan]

This was visited just a few weeks ago...but I'll humor you. I'm not an advocate of "once saved always saved" as some people here are. I believe there's too much Scripture to prove otherwise.

Ex: God's covenant with man and woman in the Garden of Eden. God didn't break his covenant with them...but they decided to turn away from God. If the 1st man and woman did it, why can't we today?

Also...the parable of the soils:

10he said, To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand. 11Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12The ones along the path are those who have heard. Then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away. 14And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature.15As for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bear fruit with patience.


Those people heard the Word, and after awhile fell away. To me, that says, once saved, not always saved.

Anyways, do a search on the topic, it was hot a few weeks ago.

[Rebel Hog]

Are we saved by grace or works?
Ephesians 2:8,9; Romans 3:20,28; Galatians 2:16
and James 2:24; Matthew 19:16-21

[ol]Saved by grace
[ol](Ephesians 2:8-9) - "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, that no one should boast."
(Rom. 3:20,28) - "because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin...28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law."
(Galatians 2:16) - "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified." [/ol]
Saved by works
[ol](James 2:24) - "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."
(Matthew 19:1617) - "And behold, one came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?" 17And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." [/ol][/ol]
God does not want a faith that is empty and hypocritical. James 2 is talking about those who "say" that they have faith but have no works. Therefore, people cannot tell if they are true believers or not, because there is no fruit. That kind of a faith is useless and is not a saving faith. True faith results in true works.
In Matthew 19:16-17, Jesus was speaking to a Lawyer who was self-righteous since he wanted to put Jesus to the test (Luke 10:25). He asked what he must do in order to obtain eternal life and Jesus responded with the requirements of keeping the commandments. If a person keeps all of the commandments, it would seem that they could obtain eternal life. However, nobody can keep all of the commandments. Therefore, Jesus' comments to this man show this man that justification can only be by faith since no one can keep all of the commandments. This is why it says in Eph. 2:8 that we are saved by grace through faith. Also, Romans 3:20,28 and Galatians 2:16 tells us that no one is justified in the sight of God by the law; that is, by the works that he can do.
There is no contradiction at all when we examine the contexts. We are justified by faith but that faith must be alive (James 2). The Law cannot save us because we are incapable of keeping it (Matthew 19:16-17). Therefore, salvation is by grace through faith.

[strut]

Moose, I think I could saftly say that there are hundreds of scriptures in the bible that teach against "once saved always saved", matter of fact its hard to read just one chapter without finding that teaching. Just like some of the versus' you quoted, I never looked at them for teaching against it but they sure do.

[FroMan]

Good post Reb. We are in fact saved by faith. The Bible explicitly teaches that.

However, that is not the topic at hand. It is whether we can choose to leave the faith once we've been saved.

[Rebel Hog]

Eph.1:13-14
[13] In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
[14] Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


Col.2:13-14
[13] And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
[14] Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;


1Thes.5:10
[10] Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.


Rom.6:23
[23] For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.



Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

2 Peter 2:20-21
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.


John 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Romans 8:38-39
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ

[Alex The Hawk]

Can You abuse Grace ?

[Ought Six]

Can You abuse Grace ?

I think the more appropriate question is - Can any of us live a single day without sinning?

[Rebel Hog]

ORIGINAL: Alex The Hawk

Can You abuse Grace ?

Yes we can, butI believe what He tells me.

Isa.54:10-11

[10] For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee.
[11] O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colours, and lay thy foundations with sapphires.