Born Of The Water And The Spirit

Leafrivermac · 10-09-2005, 12:39 PM

John 3:5: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

(ALT) Jesus answered, "Most positively, I say to you, unless someone is born from water and Spirit, he is not able to enter into the kingdom of God.

The ALT is an analytical literal translation. I agree with the "Most positively" rendering because in the KJV it seems to me that the "verily verily" is emphisizing the absolutness to the statement. What is being born of the water and the Spirit to you?

MOTOWNHONKEY · 10-09-2005, 01:40 PM

I think it is speaking of being Babtised after salvation where the gift of the holy spirit is embedded into your spirit. I say this because I know it wasn't the cold water making me feel the way I did when I was babtised.

LBR · 10-09-2005, 02:09 PM

I believe Christ is speaking of scriptural New Testament baptism.

I don't see how it could mean something that happensafter salvation, since Christ plainly said that one cannot enter into heaven before this happens. If that was the case, Christ either said it backwards, or one can be saved but still not enter into God's kingdom.

I don't believe He is referring to being born literally, because that makes no sense. Why would Christ say that you have to be born first to enter heaven?????? That's like Him saying you have to be born, then confess, or you have be be born, then repent, etc. You wouldn't tell someone that they have to be born, then reach the age of 18 to vote, or you have to be born, then fill out an application to get a job.

This is another scripture where some folks will take logic and throw it out the window to make a verse fit what they choose to believe, rather than choose to believe what the verse says. I don't mean to be crude here, I'm just being honest.

Chad

Leafrivermac · 10-09-2005, 02:22 PM

I agree that it's safe to say that we can take this verse literally. It's obviously a major part of the salvation process. A formula if you will. Believe, repent, and be baptized by the water and the Spirit.

LBR · 10-10-2005, 08:37 AM

I asked this before and didn't get a reply, so I'll ask it again. Are some of you taught to ignore or brush off a question you can't answer or a verse you can't explain, especially on certain subjects? I know there are folks here that don't agree that baptism is essential, but every debate on the subject ends the same way--certain questions will not be touched and/or certain verses are ignored. I can understand not wanting to argue, but is there something wrong with defending God's word as you see it? There's always the excuse "you have already made up your mind, so there is no use"--do you think God will accept that? On the other hand, if you can't answer a question or explain away a verse, does this not tell you something? Maybe the Bible is right and 'ol brother so-and-so is wrong? You shouldn't need an excuse to avoid discussing ANY scripture--if you do, then something is wrong--very wrong.

This is not directed at any individual, but if you feel like it applies to you, then it probably does. Do yourself a favor and instead of ignoring certain scripture study it more. Be ready to give an answer. If you can't answer scripturally and still be in accordance with what you have been taught, which one will you choose? The Bible, or your tradition?

Chad

etothepii · 10-10-2005, 09:13 AM

Quote:

I don't believe He is referring to being born literally, because that makes no sense. Why would Christ say that you have to be born first to enter heaven?????? That's like Him saying you have to be born, then confess, or you have be be born, then repent, etc. You wouldn't tell someone that they have to be born, then reach the age of 18 to vote, or you have to be born, then fill out an application to get a job.

I'll do my best to answer this, Chad.

O'le Nic didn't understand what it meant to be born again. He evenasked Jesus if a man could climb inside the womb to be born again. In saying that a man must be born of water and of spirit, he was helping to differentiate between the two births.

The subject of baptism, the word baptism does not come up in this conversation.

So, to summarize, Christ isn't saying you have to be born first to enter heaven. He's explaining birth and being spiritually born again.

Edit: If this reply isn't very lucid, forgive me. I'm still experiencing some dizziness, and a kind of "disconnected" feeling right now.

etothepii · 10-10-2005, 09:21 AM

Verse 6 parallels the message very well.

Flesh gives birth to flesh, but spirit gives birth to spirit.

LBR · 10-10-2005, 09:46 AM

Thanks Eto!I've been thinking more about it, and it's likely that could be what Christ is explaining. Christ (obviously) had not died yet, so the Old Law had not yet been fulfilled and one could not be scripturally baptized yet--they were still under the Law of Moses. I don't know if that's the case, but it is a strong possibility.

Sometimes both sides will go to extremes to prove a point--been guilty of it myself--I don't think this instance is solid proof either way on whether baptism is essential or not, but we do have many other verses that tell us what we have to do.

Chad

cardeer · 10-10-2005, 06:14 PM

hey the thief on the cross was not baptized and Jesus said he would be with him. If Baptism is needed for salvation Jesus lied. How can people take such simple things and make it so confusing ?

Chuck7 · 10-10-2005, 06:31 PM

Cardeer I said that once on here back in January and a member came back with...how do we know the theif wasn't baptized?

Which is a good point .We really don't know.
For me..I beleive baptism is very necessary. And dunked under the water.
I beleive John 3 makes that very black and white.
Chuck