Created in God's image

[mr-pirk]

What in total does this mean to you?

The Lordtold Abrahamhe had to go down to where Lot lived to see if the reports of sinfullnessthat had reached Heaven showed things to be as bad as reported.

The moreI know, the less I KNOW. Ponder the above.

Thanks
Mr-Pirk

[Chuck7]

Seems a little like the situation in Job where different angels and such can report back to God. such as ...

Job1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Hebrews 12:1
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Chuck

[Leafrivermac]

I'm trying to find your verse in my bible Mr Pirk. Maybe your not in the KJV, are these the verses your speaking of?
Gen 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
Gen 18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

[mr-pirk]

Leaf River Mac, yep those are the verses I am refering to.

Chuck, to me the questioning God does of Satan in Job seems to be of a retorical nature.
I don't see that with the verses concerning Sodom and Gomorrah, perhaps I am just missing something because of the translations and such.

Thanks
Mr-Pirk

[Leafrivermac]

I'm trying to get in the groove of where your going Mr Pirk. Are you familiar with the word "Theophany" ? A theophany is a visible manifestation of God . . .temporary in nature generally. As God is invisible in nature, to make Himself visible He manifests Himself in a visible form.
God appeared to Abraham as a smoking furnace and a burning lamp, and as a man (Genisis 15:1, 17; 18:1-33). In the instance your refering to , God and two angels appeared in the form of three men (18:2) and ate food provided by Abraham. The two angels left to go to Sodom, while the Lord remained to talk to Abraham. (Genisis 18:22; 19:1).

[mr-pirk]

Leaf River Mac " Are you familiar with the word "Theophany" ? A theophany is a visible manifestation of God . . .temporary in nature generally "

Leaf thanks for the examples ofhow god can show himself, butI was headed in a different direction.
I am refering to God's stated purpose for his visit to Earth that day.
Gen 18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

I had thought that it was just to offer an "Object Lesson" to us about the nature of God. Kind of like God used Abrham's questioning of God to show us God's rightious nature.
Kind of like it was staged for Abraham's and our benefit, the more I study it the more I see that as being a very incomplete understanding.

Study Gen 18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

Leaf I will leave it at that for a while and see what comes up. I will tie it together a few posts from now.

Thanks
Mr-Pirk

[Alex The Hawk]

The Theophanies in the Old testament were manifestations of Yeshua (Jesus) before his incarnation, there is also an angel which carries the name of God, which speaks for God as if He were God. There are many writtings about this angel, who can sit by God and helps God with the salvation of men.
But most christian theologians do not accept any of those Hebrew books, because they think it implies that Yeshua was an angel, That is a Jehova Witness teaching.
This is the same angel that appeared to Jacob and wrestle with Jacob all night.

[Alex The Hawk]

Here is a commentary on that angel:

Metatron
by Ilil Arbel, Ph.D.







The myths of Metatron are extremely complicated, and at least two separate versions exist. The first version states he came into being when God created the world, and immediately assumed his many responsibilities. The second claims that he was first a human named Enoch, a pious, good man who had ascended to Heaven a few times, and eventually was transformed into a fiery angel. Some later books adopt the first version, some the second, and in other literature both are combined. There are even two versions of the name Metatron, one spelled with seven letters, the other with six, lacking the Hebrew letter "yod." The Kabbalists explained that the six-letter name represents the Enoch-related Metatron, while the seven-letter name refers to the primordial Metatron. Despite the elaborate debate, the origin of Metatron's name is not clear. Many attempts have been made to explain it, but none of them is satisfactory, since the word has no real meaning or root in any language. Some authors think it may be derived from private meditations and visions, or even glossolalia. This article concentrates on the Metatron-Enoch version
Metatron is one of the most important angels in the heavenly hierarchy. He is a member of a special group that is permitted to look at God's countenance, an honor most angels do not share. In the literature, Metatron is often referred to as "the Prince of the Countenance."
In the Babylonian Talmud, Metatron is mentioned only three times, but the references are important. All three relate to the problem of Metatron's immense power, which may have caused some people to confuse him with God. In later literature he was even mentioned as the "lesser Yahweh" -- a serious blasphemy for the strictly Monotheistic Judaism. Later, some authors tried to resolve the issue by showing how the Hebrew letters of the name of a mythical predecessor, the angel Yahoel (later to be entirely identified with Metatron), were the same letters as those in the name of Yahweh. Another legend states that God himself named him so, out of affection. A fascinating legend tells of a particularly interesting and famous Jewish heretic, Elisha ben Avuyah, who saw Metatron sitting by God's side, occupying the same type of throne. This made Elisha suspect that two equal powers operated in the universe -- God and Metatron. The legend continues to explain that he made a false assumption, which indeed cost Elisha his position within the Jewish community. According to these scholars, God permitted Metatron to sit because, as God's scribe, he recorded the good deeds of the Nation of Israel. This story works very well with two of Metatron's many heavenly tasks: a scribe and an advocate, defending the Nation of Israel in the heavenly court.
Enoch, a pious teacher, scribe and leader of his people, is famed for the part he took in the tragedy of the fallen angels (see Watchers). Living during a time of great sins, around the flood, he had visited Heaven more than once. However, the time was ripe for a most significant trip. One night, two angels woke him up and commanded him to prepare for his journey. They took him on their wings, and showed him all the Heavens and their inhabitants, including a side trip to Paradise and to the place of punishment and torture of the sinners, which strangely enough was located not too far from paradise. He observed the activity of the sun and the moon, and made a visit of consolation to rebellious angels, the Grigori, succeeding in bringing them closer to God. After the tour, the great Angels Gabriel and Michael lead him straight to God's Throne.
Sitting next to God, Enoch was instructed in wisdom, and using his skills as a scribe, prepared three hundred and sixty-six books. When he learned everything, a most significant thing happened. God revealed to him great secrets -- some of which are even kept secret from the angels! These included the secrets of Creation, the duration of time the world will survive, and what will happen after its demise. At the end of these discussions, Enoch returned to earth for a limited time, to instruct everyone, including his sons, in all he learned. After thirty days, the angels returned him to Heaven.
And then the divine transformation took place. Additional wisdom and spiritual qualities caused Enoch's height and breadth to become equal to the height and breadth of the earth. God attached thirty-six wings to his body, and gave him three hundred and sixty-five eyes, each as bright as the sun. His body turned into celestial fire -- flesh, veins, bones, hair, all metamorphosed to glorious flame. Sparks emanated from him, and storms, whirlwind, and thunder encircled his form. The angels dressed him in magnificent garments, including a crown, and arranged his throne. A heavenly herald proclaimed that from then on his name would no longer be Enoch, but Metatron, and that all angels must obey him, as second only to God.






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Article created on 29 December 1999; last modified on 27 November 2003.
MCMXCV - MMV Encyclopedia Mythica. All rights reserved.

[motor]

16 And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way.
17 And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;
18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD Gen.18:16-22 KJV..

here we have the three angels and Abraham walking toward Sodam..and as they were walking the one angel was telling Abraham that God was going to destroy Sodom..it is a kinda unusual way of telling the story but God wanted Abraham to know that He was interested in him as the father of the nation that would inherit all of the land and He wanted him to know why He was destroying Sodom..He didn't want Abraham to think it could happen to his land later on..the punishment was because of the cry of Sodam v20, due to sin. you know the rest of the story how Abraham pleaded to God to save the righteous in thecity if he foundas little as ten righteous there and He couldn'..that was a poor commentary on Lot's witness there..

[mr-pirk]

What is your common understanding of All-Knowing and Omni-Present?

21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

Thanks
Mr-Pirk