The Real truth about LDS Christians and Priesthood, Plural marriage etc.
The plain and simple truth of the rights and reasons of the priesthood and the LDS Church. The purpose of this post is to respond to some of the allegations that Swampmonster has purported against LDS Christians and the reason behind limiting the priesthood to all worthy male members of the LDS Church
In doing so, I will demonstrate that he and his "Swamplogic" can be likened unto a criminal defense lawyer. How? Because he continues to:
1) deliberately distort the facts by not presenting full text and dialogue
2) Without full text and dialogue, one can misrepresent, misconstrue and distort.
3) He is deliberate in attempts to twist the "evidence" in relation to LDS Christians.
4) He does not offer up facts, only age old anti_mormon quotes that do not answer the questions he is even asking or positions he is presenting, therefore:
5) In so doing, he is not bound by the truth, he is bound to obfuscate it!
I do not want to sound critical or demeaning to Swampmonster, but he has stated that he does not and will not have any dialogue with "any Mormon." He has stated that this is because of past experiences. He states that we LDS Christians are "irrational" and "illogical." In fact he says we are downright deceptive. I ask anyone here to see for yourself if we are truly that way. In addition, I would ask if you can find the rationality and logic in someone who:
1) Presents only what he believes and will not give another person a chance to dialogue with them and to say what they believe (this is evident in the mass amounts of information he places on this board, e.g. give them so much to chew on, they get a stomach ache and leave you alone) I see it that if this is the situation presented, it makes it difficult for a man to adequately judge the truth or not.. If you follow Swamps guidelines for relational dialogue you do not follow the sound doctrine. He sets himself up to be the light and does not follow the right of equifinality. In fact if you follow his rules of engagement, Isaiah has a warning to be heeded when he said: "And judgement is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off; for truth is fallen in the street and equity cannot enter (Isaiah 59:14).
Swamp, all men should be treated with respect, equity and justice. I firmly believe that you should be willing to take a subject one by one, piece by piece and say your "peace" and then grant us an opportunity to respond. Are you willing to do so, or do still want to follow the current path of attempting to flush us out and shut us down with your floods of inaccuracies and misrepresentations?
2) Swamp presents what WE believe. I find it odd and "illogical" that someone who is not of my faith is better qualified to preach the "doctrines" of my church better than I am. I find it odd and "illogical" that Swamp tells me what my past or current prophets taught; interprets their words and clarifies discrepancies for me. When was the last time someone outside of your faith told you what you believe, what to feel and what not to feel, WHAT IS TRUE AND WHAT IS NOT? When was the last time someone took quotes from your Church leaders and didn"t give the full context of what is really being stated? How would you feel if someone did this to you.? Does this accurately represent the "truth?" In fact I see the slander Swamp reports as the LDS position is exactly what Paul stated when his words were misconstrued, misinterpreted and slanderously represented when he said: "And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil that good may come? (Romans 3:9). Swamp continues to slander our position with malice aforethought. He feels justified so that some good may come.
In fact, Swamp claims innocence to his use of selective editing techniques and misrepresentation. He uses the same old justification of his tricks when he states: "Just for the record, as I make quotes here, I will often use ellipses (") where appropriate to cut out unnecessary text. But I will never alter the essential meaning of those texts, certainly not intentionally.
Right Swamp, we"ll show that your editing skills are certainly a deliberate trick to misrepresent and mislead just like the Tanner and the Deckers do with their selective editing techniques. This probably where you not only obtain your information, but learned how to "teach" it.
Here is another piece of murk from the filth of the Swamp mire: He states " I will also include links and/or at least references so that readers may read the relevant textsto ensure I have not destroyed their meaning.
I will show that
1) Swamp does not give all of the relevant information important to an issue. He selectively quotes form inaccurate, spliced and diced anti-Mormon material and then gives references from websites to show that his "position is "true."
2) Not only are Swamps quotes sliced and diced, but the some of the references are not actually in existence or cannot be found in the archives he claims them to be (I know, because in an effort to truly find out, I have researched claims like his for a LONG time). "Professional" anti-Mormons like him rely on other Anti-mormonweb sites, CD-Roms and the like. These are the same tactics and tricks that have been used by "professional" anti-Mormons like the Tanners and Decker and hunt for the past 25 years. Top notch evangelicals don"t uses these slanderous and deceitful tactics. They play by the rules and ask hard questions. They don"t deliberately misrepresent and lose a critical piece of material to a pair of ellipses here and there"They don"t slander by" They also offer the facts, even if they don't agree with our doctrinal position. However, Swamp does:
1) Not giving the full facts or the full story
2) When he or they say they are giving you all the facts, references to "imply" a mode of professionalism when they are really not. If the quotes they offer are really true, why not tell us from what source they were obtained and how? Did Swamp personally check the LDS Church archives for all of his quotes? No, I greatly believe he has not. I would be interested to hear if he has really done the research he purports here on this site.
3) Professional evangelicals do not have some personal hatred and venom toward Latter-day saints.They seek to build and findcommon beleifs.They treat all men and women with equality and respect. They follow the admonition of Peter: And to Godliness brotherly kindness: and to brother kindness charity. (Regardless if they disagree or not). (2nd Peter 1:7) Swamp does not appear to abide in this.
The elipses that Swamp uses are uses much more than to cut out what he says are the damnable "wherforeunto thy harkeneth forthwiths" that Smith used to make his words seem from God."
In fact, when he removes so much of the other text, you actually LOSE THE MEANING. He attempts to justify his editorial by stating:"This trash simply gets in the way. When we cut out some of it, we can better get at the meaning."
I guess when you cut out the truth, that is justifiable? This goes right back to Paul, do evil to justify what you believe to be good (i.e. Saving souls from the falsity of Mormonism or other things like it as Swamp states). Save them from what? From hearing the real truth in the proper context and manner?
I also find it interesting that Swamp uses incredible pejorative language to describe Mormons, Mormon "doctrine," or anyone who agrees with Latter-day Saints. He also accuses us of "simply dump[ing] a whole cesspool of text on the reader, obscuring the facts. I have tried to avoid this, leaving links and references so readers may "take a swim" on their own, if they have a mind to." [Brackets mine].
Now I"ll be the first to admit I have had a few posts that were a bit lengthy, including this one, but I have not dumped any amount of anything even close to the amount of "information" that Swamp has decided to download upon the ignorant reader here on this site.
I would like him to qualify what he feels are really a cesspool. Everything I have quotes on here is true, accurately researched andreliable in a preofesional manner(With the exception a lengthy quote I provided by Stephen Robinson where I should have checked his sources more accurately. Swamp even pointed this out for me and as I said before, I thanked him for it).
So Swamp, let"s start looking at the accuracy of what your quoting. I know that my attempts at providing information have at least been honest representations. I think it really becomes a "cesspool" when one offers misquotes, inaccuracies, incomplete text, and pulls/pools from anti-Mormon sources like you have. Let"s start calling a spade a spade shall we.
In my next post I will give accrate information that Swamp has so cleverly decided to omit in an "illogical" and dishonest attempt to mislead many persons here on this site.
Lets take a look at the issue of "blacks" and the Priesthood and get some of the real facts straight.. In fact, you will see that the issue is really "black and white" and that my parody of words has absolutely nothing to do with racism and skin color like the "Swamplogic" that has been presented.
Lets first look at:
1) Some of the Real facts Swamp never let you in on.
2) Even though the references that Swamp offers are NOT official doctrine of the Church, let"s see if Swamp is really offering all his quotes and citations (More particularly to Brigham Young) in the correct context. Next, lets check see and if his references are as accurate as they seem to be.
3) Let"s deal with the changes that took place in 1978 and see if they were really "political" or if they really did come from God to President Spencer W. Kimball.
God Bless,
Porter.
__________________
"The Lord commands us to be peacemakers. This is more than peace keeping. Peacemaking is an active thing that requires much greater effort at making peace happen rather than just keeping ones peace."
RE: The Real truth about LDS Christians and Priesthood, Plural marriage etc.
First, the simple facts and reality[/b]
[/b]
The history of black membership in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints can be divided between the era from 1830 to June 1978 and the period since then. However, a presentation of some simple facts are in order.
1. Blacks, American Indians and those of "darker skin" have always been allowed to hold the Priesthood. The issue of restriction HAS NEVER BEEN A RACIAL ISSUE MOTIVATED BY HATRED OR EXCLUSIONIST POLICIES! There are those of darker skin in Australia and New Zealand (the aborigines), a select few in the United States and parts of the Caribbean that have ALWAYS HELD THE PRIESTHOOD SINCE THE CHURCH WAS FIRST ESABLISHED THERE! Why did Swamp not tell you this? Why because he wants you to think that Mormons are racists and extremists! He chooses not to offer up all the facts and all the information. He will give you biased information in an attempt to persuade you that Mormons will find ways to not only exclude blacks, but probably exclude you as well!
However, he hasn"t done his research other than simply regurgitating the refuse that is offered up by traditional anti-Mormons. He won"t even tell you that the numbers of those who were baptized and held the priesthood in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.has been fairly small in these areas prior to 1978, nevertheless, they were black and they did hold the priesthood. Furthermore, one reason that numbers may have been small is because there was not a lot of prosetyzing in the area due to the possible conflict between those of full African decent and those who did not have any African (Canaanite blood).
2) I FIND IT INTERESTING THAT Swamp states that any black individual who has spoken positively for the Church and stated that the racial issue and unofficial statements by early that may APPEAR (and I restate APPEAR) BECAUSE IF ONE TRULY STUDUES THEM THEY ARE NOT) as exclusionary or "racist" have been "duped" or they are "stupid" etc. So do the hundreds of thousand of black members fall into this category?
3) It seems to me that Swampmonsters version and brand of labeling blacks in the LDS Church is actually where the racism lies. I don"t hear of anyone in my Church calling the dark skinned members of my congregation "ignorant, deceived, duped and stupid." In fact, from my own personal experience while living in Newark , New Jersey for 3 years it is very different than what he describes. A true fact is that my congregation of some 600 individuals in that area were 90% black. Some 35-50% of them had been baptized into the Church and remained faithful members (even though restricted from holding the Priesthood) since the 1950"s and 1960"s. Long before the change in allowing all persons of color to have the priesthood! I find that interesting because some of the worst race riots of the 1960"s were at their zenith in Newark, New Jersey. So if Mormons are "bleepin" discriminatory (Swamps words) why did we retain and actually INCREASE in membership in Newark during that time?
4) If Swamp was actually willing to peruse the Church archives and Church statistics and see how "racist" we really are he would find out that:
a) The fastest growing populations in the world among Church membership are among the "dark skinned" Indians of the South and Central Americas and
b) The blacks of the entire African nation are bursting at the seams. The Church cannot keep up with all the growth that is occurring in those nations. Funny that Swamp won"t tell you that this has been the desire of African nations for a long time. Since at least 1946 Baptised black members of the Church had been asking for missionaries to come to that country and had organized churches using the Book of Mormon.(For a more complete treatise of this one can research many sources 1) James B. Allen "Would be Saints: West Africa: Journal of Mormon History 17, (1991) pp 207-247)
In fact, at one point in 1963 missionaries were called, but the Nigerian government refused to admit them after learning of the priesthood restriction. Yet the Nigerians Saints continued to pressure their government to allow the Church and its missionaries. Some general authorities also questioned committing resources to Africa at all. Still, LaMar Williams, an employee of the missionary department, visited the would-be Mormons in Nigeria several times and was impressed with their spirit and eagerness to accept the church, not withstandingand including priesthood restriction.
So how is that, they were fully aware of the restriction and the reasons why, but since they had fasted, prayed and received a witness of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, they continued not only to pressure their own government and the Church in Salt Lake to send missionaries. Why did Swampmonster not choose to tell you that?
c) Other than Utah and California the fastest growing places for Church membership in the United States are in the South. Why would Swamp choose to not tell you that according to the unofficial statistics of 2004 (unofficial, because the sources I can offer have tried to separate out the black membership from the others. However, official church records do not have race listed on membership so it would be pretty hard to define who is black and who is white or latino, Asian) etc. However, the greatest increase appears to be among the "black" memberships in the Atlanta, Houston, Dallas and Central and South Florida areas. Why did Swamp choose to not tell you that?
5) Swamp didn"t inform you that not only the black membership grew prior to 1978, but that church membership among blacks in Brazil had grown enormously during the 1960s and 1970s. Determining who was black had always been a sensitive issue in the racially mixed country (Again, some blacks could hold the priesthood, some could not, why didn"t Swamp tell you that?). In 1978 a temple, from which most blacks would be excluded, was under construction. Complicating the .problem was the perplexity of determining which deceased men were "eligible" (that is, not black) for proxy ordinations to priesthood.(Mormons believe in vicarious proxy baptisms, priesthood ordinations, and marriages for the dead.) However, these was a large group of those blacks that attended the ceremonies of the dedication of that temple.
LDS Church Presidnet at that time, President Kimball was well acquainted with black Mormons. For example, when he went to Brazil, he often visited with black members there. Helvecio Martins ( arestricted black man), who became a general authority in 1990, was present at the cornerstone laying for the Brazilian temple in 1977 (prior to the change in Policy) . Kimball called him to the podium, embraced him, and told him, "Brother, what is necessary for you is faithfulness. Remain faithful and you will enjoy all the blessings of the Church." (LDS Church News) Did Swamp ever tell you that the Church is growing so fast here among Latin and Black populations that a member of the quorum of the 12 has been asked to leave Salt Lake City and take up personal residence there and in the surrounding areas to help assist the growth of the Church and the development of Preisthood leaders in the area? I don"t think so.
Anyways, I could add several hundreds more facts that Swamp or any other ant-Mormon would choose to not tell you. However, I ask you to go and seek out a "black" or "latino" member of my Church and ask them some of these questions. Sk them if the Church is "racist." Ask them if they are really "Stupid or duped." In addition, I reiterate my promise, that if anyone wants to come to Utah, I will take you personally to the Church archives and let you peruse the Mountains of anti_mormon material I have collceted over the years and let you see for yourself if all of the flood of quotes and information that Swampmoster has offered here is really "true" or accurate. I promise you that if you are really willing to search and see BOTH sides of the issue rather than just one, and not even accept my word for it, but come and see for yourself, you will see that them quips and quotes of Swampmonster are not accurate, they are out of context and completely distort and misrepresent the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
As I can, and time will allow, I with offer other point s of view on his completely ridiculous quotes about polygamy and good ole" Joe and Brigham swapping wives. I agree that it would be reprehensible if they did, however, they did not. I have researched his claims long before he started presenting them here. Again, Swampy just doesn"t give the whole story, only a few small splinters and particles of it.
In addition, since I don"t have the time to peruse and respond to all the filth that he has presented here, if you are really interested, go and find out for yourself. Obtain original sources. If you are really and genuinely interested in obtaining them, I will see what I can do to obtain them for you. I live 40 miles from Salt Lake City, but my office is right downtown, a 3-5 minute walk from the archives. I have of box of his anti-Mormon trash you can compare it to. See for yourself. Don"t be "duped" by the anti-Mormon sources and antagonism of Swampmonster.
I"ll show where he has taken the Brigham Young "cut the heads off" and other ridiculous arguments against us as I can. It looks like Pirk and others would like a few other questions answered so I will look at them as well when I have time. I wanted to present some of the overlooked facts first.
God Bless you all,
Porter.
__________________
"The Lord commands us to be peacemakers. This is more than peace keeping. Peacemaking is an active thing that requires much greater effort at making peace happen rather than just keeping ones peace."
RE: The Real truth about LDS Christians and Priesthood, Plural marriage etc.
Before we look at many of the quotes that have been garnered by Swampmonster, from anti-Mormon websites, let me share an article in rregards to Richard Abanes. Swampmonster has culled and mulled to grab you with some of the most "Notorious" Mormon headlines.
I would ask you to briefly look through this short article and see if Swampmonsters tactics are almost an exact match of the "notable" Richard Abanes and his tactics. Swampmonster has almost followed Abanes tactics to a "T" (Except he forgot to dot a few "I"s). See for yourself if the LDS Christians on this site are really get a fair shake at honest, forthright representation of their beliefs or not. I am NOT necessarily asking for you to agree with my beliefs, however, I am asking you to see if we are fairly and accurately represented. You will see that Swamp has taken the exact same approach as Abanes and others that spend all of their time attempting to convince you that Mormons are part of a "cultist" movement (among other things). Here is the link:
If this link does not work, PM and letme know and I will send you a copy.
Now as to Swampmonsters approach with the other resources he has pulled from. In all honesty, just about any representation on the web or in any bookstore will carry the works of either 1) Walter Martin (CRI-which Abanes was part of for years) 2) Jerald and Sandra Tanner (Utah Lighthouse Ministry) 3) Ed Decker and Dave Hunt (The Godmakers/Saints Alive). As I have stated before, these are the "classics" that have been disseminated for years in regard to LDS Christians. These are where almost all of the anti-Mormon websites have garnered their ideas.
As I have time, I will dissect the quotes that Swampmonster has pulled from these websites and you will be able to judge for yourself. He may say: "Stop attacking them or their sites because you can"t prove what they have had to say is true." In reality, since Swamp has pulled from them as sources, I will not be attacking him, but the source of the material. Why? Because as I stated earlier, the "scholarship" of the Tanners and others Swamp has pulled from is seriously lacking. You will see that what Swamp wanted present as official sources to counteract Mormon doctrine, does even use the unofficial sources he presents in an official or scholarly manner. You will be able to see that the use of elipses(") are a classic tactic among others is used by these primary three anti-Mormons in order to manipulate the material that best suits their needs to attempt to damage the LDS Church. It is not just to take out prophetic jargon as Swampmonster alludes to.
So, before I show the fallacies of their arguments, it is important to show how the arguments were obtained in the first place!
If you would like to know more about the plagiarism, half-truths (Which are actually half lies) about the Tanners, Decker, Abanes and others, please consult these sources that discuss the manner in which the Tanners and others approach our doctrines. Peruse them if you so desire and you be the judge to see whether thie approach is honest, enorages a fair exchange of ideas and represents what LDS Chrisitians actually believe.
I am encouraging you to do so in am effort to see that what you have been told here is incorrect and presented with pure malice aforethought.. Again, you don"t have to even agree with our doctrines, but check to see that the doctrines have been presented accuruately, fairly and without misrepresentation.
Here are some sources to start with:
http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/liw/
(You can download chapters or the entire books of They Lie in Wait to Deceive Volumes I and II. These book will show actual references and then the "references" and "quotes" the Tanners and other anti-Mormons use that Swampmonster has drawn from. Unfortunately Volumes III and IV are not yet ready for download, but will be coming soon.
Here is another article that reviews the common charges and some of the most noted anti-Mormon authors that preach against LDS Christians. You will see that there arguments are recycled and have been so for years. Here is the link: http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/conf/2002AshM.html
That should be a few to start. As I have said, when I can find some more additional time to pull out my research boxes that contain a mountain of this stuff, I will get to dissecting more of the anti-Mormon lies and propaganda that has been put on this site by Swamp.
If anyone has a question of concern about any of these anti-Mormon resources, let me know. I have printed copies (books) of everything I have mentioned on this post including the anti-Mormon material by the Tanners, Decker and others.
God Bless and happy reading,
Porter.
__________________
"The Lord commands us to be peacemakers. This is more than peace keeping. Peacemaking is an active thing that requires much greater effort at making peace happen rather than just keeping ones peace."
RE: The Real truth about LDS Christians and Priesthood, Plural marriage etc.
What do you know, I actually think Swampmonster and I actually have a point of agreement! I was doubtful that this day would ever come, but Lo and behold, it has!
Even though I believe this man (or woman) whomever Swamp monster really is, is so filled with hate that he/she cannot even call me by my name "Porter" other that "A Mormon" or "this Mormon" (that should at least tell you something, if you don"t agree with Swamp or he (I"ll assume Swamp is male) won"t even call you by name. How prejudiced or biased is that? Even though he does not seek to dialogue with me or by name, I"ll always look for ways in which we can be in agreement
Anyways, let"s start with Point of Agreement #1: as stated by Swampmonster:[/b]
[/b]
Swamp: "The Mormon here has in another post given you a challenge. He has challenged you to go to black Mormons and ask them if they are being discriminated against. Big deal if they are not. What you really should do is print out my posts on this thread, give them to black Mormons and ask them how they deal with Mormonism"s racist doctrines (or whether they even know they exist. Chances are " they haven"t a clue)."
Porter Agrees with Swamp! (With two exceptions): [/b]
[/b] #1 Absolutley take what Swamp has cut and pasted from Anti-Mormons and share it with not only blacks, but anyone else as well. In addition, why not be fair and give them some additional information that I and others of my faith have provided as additional insight?[/b] [/b]Lets be fair, every coin has two sides. If you give only one side, it is incomplete. Swamp would insist that you carry his coin in your pocket with his logo etched on one side and absolutely nothing on the other. No name, no face, but nothing. His side is etched with: a) His rationale b) His select choice of what he believes is our doctrine c) his incomplete and illogical cut and paste techniques that anti-Mormon use and then he tells you to rely on him and his quotes to see who we really are. However, if you hold onto his coin it is counterfeit. Why, not only for the aforementioned reasons, but because he literally takes away from the true etching that should be stamped on the other side "In God we Trust." This leads to the second exception.
#2 When you are presented with the coin, make sure that it offers the etching "In God we trust." Why? Now while I may be asking you to go away with some of my quotes, I am really asking two things. A) Research beyond what Swamp has given you here. Look for full quotes and other details that just might be missing (I"ll get to some examples in a minute if I can, if not I"ll start after Labor day, but I"ll give you enough here you can start on yourself) B) Most importantly, I am asking you to do a full research and go to primary sources and then TRUST IN GOD." Once you have obtained both sides of the coin, get on your knees and pray with faith in Jesus Christ and ask him for the answer. Although I may attempt here to be persuasive, don"t trust me, but trust God. He will lead you to the full truth if you sincerely want to have the answers . Swamp offers you a faceless counterfeit to the truth. One side--faceless, no names acknowledged or recognized and a reliance on self rather that a reliance on God. This is not only unfair, but goes against the brand of "logic" he attempts to offer. Trust in the fact that God will lead you if you are willing to look for ALL the answers, not just some![/b]
So, lets get back to some of the "Swamplogic" that has been presented here.
Swamp: "The Mormon church claims it does not know why it banned blacks. It ought to know because it has for over a hundred years doctrinally condemned these people as "cursed children."
Porter: Let"s be truthful and acknowledge who the curse really applies to. Swamp wants you to believe that .the facts presented are "irrelevant" and should just be dismissed. Again, what does he do? He attempts to give those who have made a commitment to Christ, who have a face and a name a "pink slip" as if they don"t apply anymore. In other words they are insignificant and really don"t matter. I ask, don"t you think anyone regardless of religion or race matters? You judge for yourself and ask God, see if a just a few names or if everyone no matter how small a group really matters to God.
On Tuesday, I"ll give you many more names than just the "few" he offers. There are several others other than the Abel family. However, he can"t point it out because he is either ignorant or chooses not to acknowledge the facts. If he actually had copies of the books he selectively quotes from the Tanners, he would see that there are others faces and names both they and he choose to ignore. This shows his sole reliance onAnti-Mormons rather than researching all of the sources in their entirety.
Here is Swamps quote as to this point: "A Mormon here claims he has a number of facts that he apparently thinks exonerates Mormonism from its past. These are facts, he thinks, I have withheld from readers here. Lets take a look and let us see if these facts truly are relevant to the point."
Porter: I don"t see that any other facts are offered here to counteract my point. So why not add a few more. Swamp claims that he did mention that blacks within the Church did hold the priesthood and refers you to his post #66 where he states: "Elijah Abel, a few of his sons, and precious few others are included among these blacks. They are the exceptions proving the Mormon rule."
It is important to see where Swamp is obtaining his information. Remember I said earlier that he would quote cut and pasted material from zealous anti-Mormons who are not interested in 1) offering all the facts 2) slicing and dicing the real truth to attempt to prove their point. HERE IS YOU CHANCE TO FOLLOW THE SWAMPLOGIC. REMEMBER THAT SWAMP SAID HE WOULD OFFER YOU URL"S AND QUOTES TO BACK UP HIS INFORMATION. Lets start of with this one. Please notice as you read through this web site from the Tanners (remember, they were excommunicated from the LDS Church for 1) Forgery (claiming documents were authentic and then selling them to make a profit when they were not---prior to the Mark Hoffman affair where he did the same thing Except he killed two people in the process! He even tried to sell stuff to the Tanners! This goes to show you that even anti-Mormons don"t support each other! 2) Embezzlement (stealing church funds-tithes and offerings. What is supposed to build meetinghouses and places of worship, feed the poor and assist the needy was obtained by the lowly and greedy who wanted to further the printing of the illogical, unethical and dishonest material. 3) Apostasy-speaking against Church elders and 4) Apostasy-Teaching not only false doctrine, but then demanding that other Church embers follow it. [/b]
[/b]
[/b] Personally, I don"t know about you, but I certainly would not trust these kinds of people as reliable, trustworth and honest sources of information. I think obtaining information from a source like this is not only "illogical" but downright dishonest and misleading[/b]
[/b] Furthermore, 1) please pay attention to the number of elipses (") that are contained in these quotes. It important as we look to the full documentation in the future. 2) In addition, look under the subject headings because these are exactly where Swamp has drawn his arguments. Then ask yourself, has Swamp really looked at other sources other than these detestable anti-Mormons. 3) Notice not only that the Tanners do not give full quotes, but look at where they obtain their information. Only in some instances does information come from the Church archives or public information from the Church statistical and records office, often times it comes from other slanderous and anti-Mormon books and authors. [/b]
[/b]
Some examples: a) The Mormon Hierarchy: Extensions of Power, written by D. Michael Quinn. A former LDS Historian who has also altered Church records and was excommunicated from the Church for Homosexuality. However"even with all that he still believes the Church to be true. Since he has come out of the closet, he has attempted to make Homosexuality and part of LDs History and something that should be accepted. This is not what our Church believes. If you would like to know more about this gay, ex-Mormon, go here: http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=review&id=280
B) Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought " A journal that has always been open to anyone, but recently has had its share of Gay and Lesbian supporters. Former editor of the Journal, Eugene England was excommunicated from the Church for Homosexuality and Apostasy. He passed away a few years ago. In addition, this journal has always contained controversial LDS writings that have rarely been supportive of the Church.
Are we beginning to see a trend here? The Tanners-who are liars and embezzlers, will use a group of former historians or pseudo historian intellectuals that are homosexuals to support their "doctrine." D) They also use little known research of a small group of BYU professors like Embry (Actually Embry has published a few other things). The other BYU professors are taken out of context just like everything else. Can you trust these people to give you honest, reliable, accurate, unbiased information? I don"t think so.
4) They attempt to make these other records appear "official" by occasionally stamping (Copy contained the official Church archives or records) You would be amazed at the size of the archives. There is enough records in there to fill a mountain. Literally. The Church gathers books both for and aganst the chirch and stores many of them there. Many others are on public display in a smaller archive on Temple Square in Salt Lake City. Here is the link to the Tanners site:
http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no102.htm
So, once I return from the Labor Day weekend I will start to dissect some of this anti-Mormon nonsense. It takes time to work through so many distortions, so bear with me. I hope you can at least see where Swamp obtains his information and in whom he places his trust. Don"t trust his counterfeit coin, but obtain all the sides to the story and go ask God to reveal the truth to you in your heart and mind. I "ll start to work on showing the portions left out by the Tanners and Ed Decker since he has not been able to show that he can do reliable and accurate research about their lies and distortions on his own and relies on others to do it for him. Sorry I won"t be able to offer further alternatives for you until then, but I refuse to waste my scouting, family and hunting time on these unscholarly attacks.
God Bless and enjoy your labor day weekend. Happy hunting if you are doing some.
Porter.
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"The Lord commands us to be peacemakers. This is more than peace keeping. Peacemaking is an active thing that requires much greater effort at making peace happen rather than just keeping ones peace."
The Real truth about LDS Christians and Priesthood, Plural marriage etc.
