As you read Revelation 20 please also read John 11:25,Colossians 2:12, 3:1, and Romans 6:3-5. These verses cannot contradict each other. But in the doctrine of the millennial reign of Christ they must contradict one another. There are some things not mentioned in this chapter. First, it does not mention the second coming of Christ. Second, it does not mention a reign on earth. Third, this passage does not mention a bodily resurrection. Fourth, it does not mention Christ on earth. And fifth, it does not mention us, it says "they" lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. The passage speaks of they, that is the souls of them that had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus. In an earlier chapter of this same book of Revelation, in Chapter 6:9-11, the picture is of the souls of martyrs who had been slain for the word of God under an altar crying for vengeance. Here the martyrs are on thrones, God's judgement has come. The victory came in the spirit world, God assured their victory. The passage also mentions the first resurrection, which is in contrast with the second death. The point is not that the righteous is raised a thousand years before the wicked, for a physical reign on earth, but that the cause of Christ for which the martyrs died is triumphant. Evil is not on the throne forever. God has overcome!
Trae
Goose,
That is what I have done in the past. I think I will get much more by reading all the prophets, Revelation and the 2 gospel accounts.
It won't take me long. Did you comment on Isaih 2? Surely we have not turned our weapons into plow shears yet.
Chuck
Surely we have not turned our weapons into plow shears yet.
Absolutely we have. Look at your own life, Chuck, you even have said that you had a termper in the past, but where is it now, you submitted it to the throne of Jesus, the King of the kingdom, which is the church. If a Christian has not turned that sword into a plow he is not fit to continue in the plowing of the field for the King (Luke 9:62)! Humbleness. Meekness. Kindness. Love. Self-control. These are the plows we use, instead of the weapons that used to prevail in our fleshly attitudes.
Trae
Goose,
We must agree that we disagree. Our interprtation of the Word is pretty different. If we can't agree on these verses I don't think we have a shot at any others either. I will continue with my study for my own benefit. . I also feel compelled to give this forum a little break for a while . God bless,
Chuck
[blockquote] Introduction
Attempt to understand the book of Revelation has given rise to a great deal of controversy. I think it is because of this controversy and the variety of opinions surrounding this book that so many ministers avoid it altogether. This is very sad because it is the only book in the Bible which gives a specific blessing to him "who reads and those who hear" its words (1:3), and it is an epistle written to the church (v. 4). The questions I want to address in this chapter are as follows: Does this book apply to us? What is its order? When does God"™s wrath take place? Does This Book Apply to Us?
First, I would simply like to point out that the book of Revelation is an epistle, written to churches. It begins with the same customary greeting usually found in the other epistles (1:4) and ends with an exhortation as usual (22:10-21). The first verse states that the purpose of this book is to show God"™s servants the "things which must shortly take place" (1:1). Then three verses later we read, "John to the seven churches that are in Asia" (1:4). It seems that, in context, the servants he is referring to are those in the churches. Seven times Jesus exhorts us to "hear what the spirit says to the churches" and then follows by "to him who overcomes . . ." It seems to me that in the remaining chapters he goes on to describe what it is we are to overcome (the Great Tribulation). Even in the final chapter of the book Jesus again states its purpose, "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches" (22:16). It just seems logical to conclude that the events written in this book are for the church.[/blockquote][/blockquote]
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Jesus said, "he who stands firm to the end will be saved" Mark 13:13.
Live Life in such a way that those who do not know Christ will come to know Him because they know you
Not Appointed to Wrath?
A major tenet of pre-tribulationism is based on exemption from divine wrath. Passages such as Romans 5:9 and 1 Thessalonians 1:10; 5:9 teach that God has spared believers from his orge (wrath) which he will pour out on unbelievers. The question then becomes, "When does the orge of God take place?" If we accept the order of Revelation laid out in the preceding section, then it only takes place after the Tribulation. This word is found only six times in the book, and it is always used in a post-tribulational setting.3 It accompanies the cosmic signs and revealing of the Lord at the sixth seal (6:16, 17); it is found after the seventh trumpet (11:18); it is used to describe the final torment of unbelievers in hell (14:10); it is found after the seventh bowl (16:19); and it is used in connection with Christ"™s second coming (19:15). Therefore, there is no problem reconciling the promise of deliverance from God"™s orge with a post-tribulational rapture. Every time this promise is made, this word orge is used. If the orge does not take place until after the tribulation is over and the church is raptured, then God"™s promise is kept.
Also, as Romans 5:9 points out, exemption from God"™s wrath is not some unique, special promise to the church but is connected with salvation and justification. The reason we are spared from God"™s wrath is because Jesus paid the penalty for us. If there will be Christians on the earth during this time period then they, too, would be exempt from God"™s wrath. These so-called "tribulational saints" are said to: "have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (7:14); overcome by "the blood of the Lamb" (12:11); "hold the testimony of Jesus" (12:17); "keep their faith in Jesus" (14:12); "die in the Lord" (14:13);4 be "witnesses of Jesus" (17:6); be "beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus" (20:4); and possibly be our "fellow servants and brethren" (6:11) if you include the church with "those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained" (6:9). These people are Christians in every sense of the word. Concerning the body of Christ, Paul says "that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it" (1 Cor. 12:26-27 ). One of the most troubling teachings of pre-tribulationism to me is a divided body of Christians with some on earth suffering while the rest of us just watch from a safe distance.5
Some would still object because they see God doing things throughout the Tribulation. My response to this is twofold. First, I do admit that some of these "plagues"6 seem too universal for believers not to be affected. Israel felt the effects of the first three plagues while they were in Egypt, but God was pouring out his wrath on the Egyptians, not them. Noah was at least inconvenienced by the effects of the flood. Did God pour out his wrath on Noah? Or did God spare Noah? (2 Peter 2:5) Lot was affected by God"™s judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah, but he, too, was the object of salvation, not wrath (2 Peter 2:7).
Second, as was the case with Israel in Egypt, we do see God being selective at times. One place this is seen is when the bowls are poured out. The first is said specifically to affect those who had received the mark of the beast and worshipped his image (16:2), the third bowl is said to be for those who killed the saints and the prophets (vs. 5-7), the fourth results in men blaspheming God and not repenting of their deeds (v. 9) and the fifth is poured out on the throne of the beast (v. 10). These things are shown to be aimed at sinners, not believers.7
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Jesus said, "he who stands firm to the end will be saved" Mark 13:13.
Live Life in such a way that those who do not know Christ will come to know Him because they know you
Even though these things are unavoidable - and maybe neccessary - I do not think they please God or Christ.
I agree! The loss of life in any way is a sad occasion. The only time it can be joyful is with the death of a Christian. But killing is never something we desire or hope for as Christians.
Trae
As you read Revelation 20 please also read John 11:25,Colossians 2:12, 3:1, and Romans 6:3-5. These verses cannot contradict each other. But in the doctrine of the millennial reign of Christ they must contradict one another. There are some things not mentioned in this chapter. First, it does not mention the second coming of Christ. Second, it does not mention a reign on earth. Third, this passage does not mention a bodily resurrection. Fourth, it does not mention Christ on earth. And fifth, it does not mention us, it says "they" lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. The passage speaks of they, that is the souls of them that had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus. In an earlier chapter of this same book of Revelation, in Chapter 6:9-11, the picture is of the souls of martyrs who had been slain for the word of God under an altar crying for vengeance. Here the martyrs are on thrones, God's judgement has come. The victory came in the spirit world, God assured their victory. The passage also mentions the first resurrection, which is in contrast with the second death. The point is not that the righteous is raised a thousand years before the wicked, for a physical reign on earth, but that the cause of Christ for which the martyrs died is triumphant. Evil is not on the throne forever. God has overcome!
Goose I finaly finished planting my food plot yesterday so today I have had a little more study time. I have been studying what you have posted here " Second, it does not mention a reign on earth. Third, this passage does not mention a bodily resurrection."
I have been trying to reconcile it with Revelation 2:26-28 (New International Version)
26To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations"” 27'He will rule them with an iron scepter; he will dash them to pieces like pottery'"” just as I have received authority from my Father. 28I will also give him the morning star.
Verse 26 addresses life after death of the faithful, we are in agreement there. Whether or not it is a bodily resurrection or if they rule in spiritual form from Heaven the ones doing the ruling, are ruling over\on earth.
It seems to be the when and who that is open for debate. I am assuming that from your stand point the 1000 years must be a figure of speach and not a literal 1000 man years.
It has been more than 2000 years since Jesus overcame and the clock started if your position that we are now in the 1000 year reign so I assume to you it is just a figure of speach. Do you have any scripture to back up that position?
I can't think of any scripture that would suggest anything other than a literial reading, a future 1000 years.
The who being ruled are men both during the 1000 years and afterward Isaiah 65: 17-25 (Make a special note of 65:17 and of 65:20), those being ruled with an iron scepter and being smashed to pieces are rulers of men and the armies of man.
Do you see any signs of that scripture being fulfilled today or at anytime since Jesus arose?
Have you recieved your morning star yet? We are still under the authority of man as long as we live in this body. Our rule is yet to be.
Although Jesus reigning in first person on earth is not directly addressed, Revelation 5:10 states that those who have overcome "will reign on earth".
John 11: 25 refers to not suffering a second death. I am a little at a loss to see just exactly how you are relating it to this topic.
Colossians 2:12 refers to our sinful nature being dead and we are now living in a new saved body, 3:1 refers to living fro God, not for our own desires.
Romans 6:3-5, refers to of not living for this world and its short life, but living with the next life as your guiding goal.
I am not seeing any contradiction with those verses and a future earthly rule by those who overcome and the 1000 year reign as it is commonly understood.
Goose there is more to be said but I got stuck trying to find the scripture in Isaiah that I was looking for, the hour has grown much to late.
If I am missing something please let me know, I know the en-bolded portion at the end of your post was addressing Satan not ruling forever, I am just addressing how you see his rule ending.
Thanks
Mr-Pirk
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A proud owner of a Flying Vee. Bestowed by the fine Gentleman VC1111 himself.
Actually read Revelation 20!
