I'd like to see a discussion on where folk draw their conclusions as far as the rapture of the church. I have only recently started leaning toward a pre-trib viewpoint. Although there are many different opinions on this subject, it should'nt be anything to get mad over. I would like to have a better understanding of Revelation and this would be a good place to start.
__________________ And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
What should we do while we wait for the Lord's return? Pre-tribulation
[ul][*]Keep God's Word, don't just read it[*]Walk in the Light, separate yourself from the world.[*]Please God by the way you live.[*]Witness to others, like Enoch who was raptured, tell people "the Lord is coming"[*]Persevere, look forward, don't turn back to the life you've left.[*]Be Humble[*]Be Holy[*]Be Blameless, make every effort to stay blameless and pure.[*]Be Watchful for the return of the Lord.[*]Pray always[/ul]
"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." Matthew 24:29-31
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words." (1 Thess, 4:16-18).
"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality" (1 Cor. 15:51-53).
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Jesus said, "he who stands firm to the end will be saved" Mark 13:13.
Live Life in such a way that those who do not know Christ will come to know Him because they know you
Thanks Rebel ..for doing all the work.
Yeah I am Mid Trib. I could show more scripture but I believe Reb did a good job. I have alot to do today. I will give you my humble opinion. I don't know any verses off the top of my head.
1. I beleive Daniel was very real and a type of end time lesson for us. In other words it will be a trying place but if we focus on Jesus we will escape.
2. I believe the place where 2 are in bed and 1 is taken is at the end of Matthew 24 after the much of the tribulation.
3. I understand the 7th or 6th seal I forget ....one of those seals is going to be extremely deadly and I believe that is where this applies" For the sake of the elect the days will be shortened."
4. Although the church is not mentioned the church is through out the book of revelations. We have at least 144,000 of them. We also see them warned in Rev.13 not to take the mark.
5. We need persecution to purify the church. When the anti-christ comes on the scene we will not be argueing gifts and doctrines. We will be showing hospitality in our underground church.
6. Yes , the United States should be playing 2 major parts and we are...
A Evangelism ...since the biggest part of Christianity is the USA
B Military support for Israel..which we are already doing.
Brother Chuck
i believe that the Church will be taken out before the tribulation begins. the 144,000 that go thru the tribulation will be Jews that recoginize Jesus as the Mesiah! don't want to even think about how bad it will be here during that time! i have had people i witness to tell me that they will wait till then and get saved. my reaponse is--if you can't live for Christ now, you will not be able to live for Him at that time of suffering and torture! Pray up, Stay up, Go up!!One Way, One Day, Straight UP!!!
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Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work ~Isaiah 54:16
I am a firm Pre. Trib believer..i believe that;'s what the bible teaches..but first let's look at what the Rapture is..
What is the meaning of the word "Rapture"?
The whole concept of being snatched up or caught up from the earth, that's where the concept of the Rapture comes from.
The English word Rapture is derived from a Latin verb form which means to be snatched or caught up and so the Bride of Christ, the Church, involving the resurrected believers but those as well who have never died will be caught up from the earth, Paul says, "together, to meet the Lord Jesus in the air." Another significant thing about that is, that tells us that in this coming of the Lord He stops in the air above the earth. He doesn't come the whole way down to the surface of the earth. As He descends from Heaven from the Father's house, He stops in the air above the earth and He waits there as His believers are caught up to meet Him in the air, and then Paul concludes with these words at the end of verse 17, "and so shall we ever be with the Lord." That's significant because that means once we are raptured to meet Christ in the air, from that time on we shall never be separated from Him again. Wherever Jesus goes, we go with Him.
What scriptural passages teach the doctrine of the Rapture?
Ther are really three different passages in the New Testament, which are the basic foundational passages for the whole doctrine of the Rapture of the Church. The first one is in John 14, vv. 1-3, Jesus has gathered with His disciples in the Upper Room. It's the night before He goes to the cross. And He had just been warning them at the end of Chapter 13 that He's going to leave them soon and they were really troubled over that. And He realized that and so He said to them, "Let not your heart be troubled. You believe in God, believe also in Me. In my Father's house are many mansions. If it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you, and if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you unto myself, so that where I am there you may be also."
And here Jesus was giving a promise to His believers that even though He was going to leave them on the day of His ascension, return to the Father's house in Heaven, that He wasn't going to leave them forever; that the day would come when He would leave the Father's house in Heaven, He would come down toward the earth where they are, that He would come for the purpose of removing them from the earth and taking them back to His Father's house to live in the mansions or dwelling places which He would be preparing for them while He is away. And it's very significant, to see that He's declaring what the purpose of it is: "so that where I am, there you may be also." Very personal note here that in that coming, He would come to take His Bride the Church so that they could be together with Him.
The second key passage is 1 Corinthians Chapter 15, vv. 51 and 52, where Paul says to his readers, "Behold, I show you a mystery; we shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump. For the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed." There Paul is emphasizing the fact that there would be an entire generation of Christians who would never experience physical death and the reason they wouldn't is because the Lord was going to come and remove them from the earth while they're still alive before they would experience physical death.
So he's saying not every Christian will die, but everyone will be changed. And he emphasizes that the change will involve a change in their body, and they now have a mortal body, which is subject to disease, deformity and death; but when this change takes place, they will receive an immortal body which will never die again, which will never be subject to disease and deformity.
Paul's also emphasizing here the extreme rapidity of the change in the body of Christians when this event takes place. The change in that body will take place faster than that -- in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. So the rapidity of the change in their bodies. That will happen at the Rapture of the Church.
But the third and really the most extensive passage on the Rapture is found in 1 Thessalonians Chapter 4, vv. 13-18, and I won't take the time to read all of that but Jesus is indicating there that the day is coming when He will come out of Heaven, He will bring with Him the souls of those Christians who have already died. When they died, John, their souls were separated from their bodies; their bodies were buried in the ground and their souls were ushered immediately into the presence of God in Heaven.
Paul in 2 Corinthians 5 says for the Christian "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." So when they die, their souls leave their bodies, their souls to the presence of the Lord in Heaven, and that's where they stay in Heaven until Christ comes to Rapture the Church. He will bring their souls with Him out of Heaven down toward the earth. We are told that He will come with the blast of a trumpet, the trump of God, with the voice of the archangel. Apparently there will be a great archangel who will accompany Him as an escort from the Father's house in Heaven.
And then Paul says when that happens, some intriguing things will begin to transpire here on the face of the earth. The bodies of the Christians who have died will be resurrected from the dead, and the implication is that their descending souls that are coming down from Heaven with Christ will be reunited with their resurrected bodies. But then Paul says those Christians who are alive and still being alive on the earth when the event of the Rapture takes place, that they, together with the resurrected Christians, will be caught up from the earth to meet the Lord Jesus in the air.
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wayne
"There's room at the cross for you."
Thanks everyone, I'm mostly leaning to a pre-trib understanding. My Pastor feels that we may see at least part of the tribulation. Revelation never mentions the church past chapter 3 or 4. I am seeing the 144, 000 as the Jews the same as Knifemakerbill. . . .I'm really open to scripture however that says otherwise. Up until just here recently, I had no opinion one way or the other, I have heard much speculation about "when" but for some reason it never peaked my interest as much as other biblical subjects. I've actually read and studied the word for most of my life and have only studied parts of revelation for it's relation to one or two other subjects.
What would really be helpful would be some scripture refering to the church during the tribulation distinguishable from those that become believers after the rapture.
__________________ And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Pre, Mid, Post, Trib
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