Hi Reb,
I was out sick yesterday and didn't get to your post. Sorry.
You stated: "Porter, explain this concept to me? The Church of Latter Day Saints has a peculiar history that explains why African-Americans and women are considered second-class citizens in the religion.
Porter: Where the heck did that come from? Completely untrue. I am more than happy to respond, but before I do, could you give me a reference to such a statement. I sounds like another Ed Decker, Godmakers, Godmakers II or some other ex mormon statement. Maybe some of my other anti-Mormon friends made such a statement. The short answer before an extended one is that we certainly don't feel that way. Give me a refernce and lets look at it again.
Reb: I have been reminded that I am in error to conclude there is no need to discuss 'everyone knows' issues of this type.
Porter: I didn't understand this, can you explain?
Reb: The Mormons are a proselytizing religion.
Porter: True
Reb: From the age of 12, every male member is considered a priest.
Porter: Incorrect. At age 12 a worthy male member may CHOOSE to be ordained to the Aaronic Priesthood and the office of a Deacon. At age 14, the office of a teacher. At age 16 the office of Priest is also availble so long as one has been foundworthy. The key point: There is no compulsion to be ordained at all, it is personal choice.
Reb: In their teens or early twenties, Mormon males are expected to dedicate a year of their lives to recruiting members to the religion.
Porter: Incorrect. There is no expectation do do anything. At age 18-19 a young man may be ordained to the Melchisedek Priedhood to the office of Elder. He CHOOSES to dedicate 2 years of his live to serving a full time mission if he so desires. The is no compulsion atall. I went when I was 19. My Father went when he was 22. I think Mahonri decided to go even later than that. The missions come from our own personal and family funds. The church pays nothing for any missionary unless the family or individual aredestitute, then the local congregation will assist the missionary and his/her family.
Reb: Female Mormons, who are expected to attend to home and hearth, not the 'male' domain of the larger world, do not have that responsibility. However, they sometimes choose to proselytize, too.
Porter: Females can do anything they want. We beleive they are best suited to a role as a full-time mother in the home taking care of the children as a primary caretaker. My mother did this. However, my wife is free to choose to do what she wishes.In the 15 years we have been married, she has had her own career for 11 of those. She has balanced work and career quite well.I am glad she wants to be home with my current son and has CHOSEN to find something at home to keep her busy and challenging besides raising children. If there is anyone 2nd Class in my household it would be me. My wife is top notch. In addition, I cannot speak specifically for Mahonri, butI know his wife works as well.
As to women serving a full time mission, it is a choice. They are not encourgaed as heavily as the young men. However, my sister filled a mission to England for 18 months. Her choice, she paid for it and loved it. She is home with two young boys, but finds time to work and enjoy other interests outside the home as well As is with the young men, the Church leaders assign you where to go on a mission. Maybe that would n't be as much a "choice" if anything I was assigned to Italy. I wasn't complaining! (Except for the $%^# heat and humidity in the summer. Sicilian summers are NASTY!
My parents decided to serve a mission together. They have been serving for 3 months of a 6 month mission in Nauvoo, Illinois. Their choice, they pay.
Reb: For most of their history, which began in the 1830s, the Mormons have excluded African-American men from full membership. Black boys were explicitly not included among the priesthood when they turned twelve.
Porter: Absolutely incorrect. Since the inception of the Curch in 1830, blacks have always been part of the Church. Early black converts joined as early as 1830 (Elijah Abel, Jane Manning James and others-these two came to Utah with the rest of the Saints).In the early Church there was no exclusion, on priesthood. However, that did change. You are probably well aware that this has been an issue for some, for others it has not.
In fact when I lived in Newark, New Jersey 90% of the 600 members of my congregation were black. Most had joined the Church through baptismPRIOR to the 1978 announcement that all worthy male priesthood holders could now hold the priesthood. People make a much bigger issue out of this than it really is. In fact, I never heard a complaint from any of my black brethren. WhenI asked them about it, there answer was, "People have told me that my church is discriminatory. I don't think so. I enjoy being a member. God loves me and would never cheat me out of anything. If I don't obtain the priesthood in this life, I know he'll make it up to me in the next!" What great, positive attitude!
Reb: Since all women are denied full membership in the Church of the Latter Day Saints,
the issue would not, of course, arise for black women.
Porter. Again, a reference would be really nice on this one. What is this detractors definition of a "full-membership?"All women are offered membership in the kingdom of God. My current congrgation has over 40 unmarried or divorced women in it. They are still members in excellent standing. Nothing is denied as far as membership. Again, what is their reference here? Priesthood maybe? No we do not ordain women ministers tothe Priesthood not matter what race, color, nationaitly or creed. Most Churches don't.. Why not mention them, or is the author of such inflammatory statement justtrying tonit pick at mormons. However, it is not a public opinion issue for us. Different roles, different responsibilities.
Reb: The reasons why blacks were excluded from real membership in the Church are a window into the history of the white supremacist mind.
Porter:Abolutely incorrect, highly inflammatory! Your informantsstatement about our supremacy is an attempt to read our doctrinal minds. Thart shows not only his/her ignorance, but that they are the supremist, all knowing about what we beieve. Nothing could be farter from the truth. Go here for some additional answers on this.
http://www.fairlds.org/cgi-bin/search/search.pl
Reb:People with that mindset have used religion to justify enslavement of and discrimination against persons of African descent for centuries. Joseph Smith, the founder of the Mormon Church had that type of
mind.
Porter: Highly inflammatory and shows ignorance of what other major religions have had as part of their history. Catholics and others would be doomed to such a statement as well. Joseph Smith did not feel that way. There have been several attempts to twist his words that it made he or Brigham Young appear as such, but it is not the case. There are plenty of very supportive statements that Joseph made, too long to add here.
Reb: According to Mormon Doctrine, we are not punished for Adam's transgressions,
Porter: This is a half truth that is intended to mislead. What should have been said is our secind article of faith: "We beleive that men will be punished for their own sins, and not punished for Adam's transgression.: This has reference to the doctrines of original sin, grace, the atinement and resurrection. This does not have
any reference to what race you are. This is a completely separate discussion from race.
Reb:...but some are born into this world with other sins they comitted in the pre-existence.
These born-sinners get black skin and are born as the decendants of Cain.
Porter: This is a very mislaeding statement. There has been general opinion that valiance in the pre-mortal world that might give one pre-eminence over one another. Whether a black skin or not has anything to do with it, we are unsure. This is a much more heavily involved discussion. However, if you will refere to the links above, they will help you obtain the answer.
The Church teaches that God placed men of importance in all stations of life that are needed to assist and guide. Martin Luther King and other black leaders are among the foremost thought to be a part of that group.
Hope this helps. I hope your source becomes a bit better informed. If you have additional questions, let me know. There are more extensive answers, but I am trying to get to a couple of other threads I am behind on.
God Bless,
Porter
For Porter
