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Old 07-23-2005, 09:53 PM   #1
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Default Are Tongues For Today?

This one is as good as once saved always saved. The Baptist believe that tongues died off with the Apostles. On the other hand most pentecostals believe that if a person does not speak in tongues, that person has not been baptized in the Holy Ghost. What do you think?
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Old 07-23-2005, 10:11 PM   #2
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Default RE: Are Tongues For Today?

I think that when the the gift of tongues was given in the bible that they had the ability to speak in a foreign language and understand the foriegn language also. When I say this I mean like spanish, english, french etc.etc. I don,t buy the no understanding babble alot of people claim that it is. Just my opinion thou. It seems to be a big show in alot of churches. Someone gets up babbeling and than another gets up and trys to get you to believe he knows what he is saying and proceeds to tell you. I'm sorry but I don't buy it.
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Old 07-23-2005, 10:26 PM   #3
 
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Default RE: Are Tongues For Today?

Most all of us have a tongue! [8D]As for the subject you are bringing up tryto search the past post on it. We have all exposed our thoughts on the subject a few times ago.

the Bible says in

Mark 16:15-18

And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18they[a] will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."

now every person that claims to me that they can speak in tongues, I take them a cotton mouth(in a box and even one time dead lol)and say "here handle this snake, the same passage that says you can speak in tongues says you can handle snakes" Also I see if they want to drink something deadly and ask them to lay hands on me and makemy pain leave me.Guess what??? They have all said NO WAY!! Then I ask is it because 1.) your faith is not strong enough? or 2.) you just down right can't do it?

Back up there in 17 it says "these signs" will follow, not this sign! We don't have those type things anymore because we have the Bible, God's perfect word, it shows us the way. Back then they didn't have the bible to lead/show them the way so to preach the word they used signs now we use the Bible.
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Old 07-23-2005, 10:34 PM   #4
 
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Default RE: Are Tongues For Today?

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ORIGINAL: MOTOWNHONKEY

I think that when the the gift of tongues was given in the bible that they had the ability to speak in a foreign language and understand the foriegn language also. When I say this I mean like spanish, english, french etc.etc. I don,t buy the no understanding babble alot of people claim that it is. Just my opinion thou. It seems to be a big show in alot of churches. Someone gets up babbeling and than another gets up and trys to get you to believe he knows what he is saying and proceeds to tell you. I'm sorry but I don't buy it.
Motown, your right, they used tongues to speak to those who didn't speak the same language as them.

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2569
this is long but well worth it!! please read it and let me know what you think.
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Old 07-23-2005, 10:48 PM   #5
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Default RE: Are Tongues For Today?

I agree partly with you bro. Mo. But what about Romans 8: 26 - Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
I am not trying to start an arguement, I would just like to know why people are afraid of the gift of tongues. And it is a gift for our use, by the Holy Spirit. I believe not all speak in tongues as found in 1st Cor. 12 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.
I like Paul would rather speak five words of understanding, than ten thousand words in a tongue.
I believe and have seen so many people inchurches try to out Holy Ghost another person, thinking sincethey speak in tongues more than others,they musthave more Holy Ghost.
Now remembering Romans 8:26, the word groaning is from the originalGreek word (Stenagmos) meaning to groan or to utter.The wordutter in the original Greek is (Alaleto)meaning not expressed in words. So if it is not expressed in words, then it can not be another language, as found in Acts chapter 2:1-4. I believe that was other language as a sign to the unbelievers in Acts 2: 8.
So what do we do with that verse, if the verse tells us that we do not know what to pray, but the Holy Spirit Himself makes intercession for us?
This subject is open to so much debate. I am a graduate of Jerry Falwells school, Liberty Universitya very fundamental Baptist College. However when I debated this subject with my Baptist brothers, it was tip-toed around. I believe the Holy Spirit can pray through us, and I believe that it is taken out of context in so many churches.
I do speak in tongues, but I refrain to do it in public for fear that an unbeliever will hear, and turn away from the faith. I have performed several exorcisms, andhave found ita very useful tool when dealingdirectly with the enemy.
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Old 07-23-2005, 10:58 PM   #6
 
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Default RE: Are Tongues For Today?

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I am not trying to start an arguement
me too

how long does one of your exorcisms take?
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Old 07-23-2005, 11:24 PM   #7
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Default RE: Are Tongues For Today?

Well Moose it's not like pulling a tooth. The last one, took almost three years to completely set them free. I really don't talk about specifics and believe God wouldn't want me speaking about an individual. But without getting into details, it was very a difficult casebecause the person I was working with really liked being possessed. Each time that person would get angry they could summon those evil spirits back, the person felt like they were super human.. And they do get very strong. It's something that if a person is not prepared for and armed with Gods' word, it could backfire on the person doing the ceremony. Like found in Acts 19: 14-16. All believers have power the works of the devil, however few ever truly witness a real possessed person. Most are cured with Zanaxthey simplyhave a mental disorder, and blame it on the devil. ( not to be defending that scoundrel). I've never been in a ceremony that was easy, if a person is truly possessed, it is a battle, andnot for the faint of heart, and certainly not for an unbeliever.
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Old 07-23-2005, 11:38 PM   #8
 
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Default RE: Are Tongues For Today?

Quote:
ORIGINAL: The Rev

This one is as good as once saved always saved. The Baptist believe that tongues died off with the Apostles. On the other hand most pentecostals believe that if a person does not speak in tongues, that person has not been baptized in the Holy Ghost. What do you think?

More importantly, Rev, what does God think?
Your quote says that if a person does not speak in tongues, that person has not been baptized in the Holy Ghost.

Logically then,one must conclude that aperson who has not been baptized in the Holy Ghost is not a Christian------Because Paul says here in Romans that if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
And last, carrying the logic to completion----one must conclude that if you don't speak in tongues you are not a Christian. Are you prepared to do that?

You are standing on pretty shaky ground.


Romans 8:9-10
You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. [10] But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.

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Old 07-24-2005, 12:36 AM   #9
 
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Default RE: Are Tongues For Today?

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ORIGINAL: The Rev

Well Moose it's not like pulling a tooth. The last one, took almost three years to completely set them free. I really don't talk about specifics and believe God wouldn't want me speaking about an individual. But without getting into details, it was very a difficult casebecause the person I was working with really liked being possessed. Each time that person would get angry they could summon those evil spirits back, the person felt like they were super human.. And they do get very strong. It's something that if a person is not prepared for and armed with Gods' word, it could backfire on the person doing the ceremony. Like found in Acts 19: 14-16. All believers have power the works of the devil, however few ever truly witness a real possessed person. Most are cured with Zanaxthey simplyhave a mental disorder, and blame it on the devil. ( not to be defending that scoundrel). I've never been in a ceremony that was easy, if a person is truly possessed, it is a battle, andnot for the faint of heart, and certainly not for an unbeliever.
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The last one, took almost three years to completely set them free
Many theories have been advanced to account for the origin of demons. Some say demons are the offspring of angels cohabiting with women (Genesis 6:1-4). But angels are sexless beings who apparently are incapable of such unions (Matthew 20:30). Instead, "sons of God" and "daughters of men" in Genesis chapter six is an idiomatic expression for the intermingling of good people with bad people"which inevitably results in moral corruption (1 Corinthians 15:33) [see Major, 1993].
Some say demons are the spirits of wicked dead men whom God permitted to leave the hadean realm to indwell some people in harmony with His divine purposes. Still others say demons are fallen angels who were allowed to escape their confinement (cf. Jude 6) to accomplish some divine purpose. The fact of the matter is, the Bible simply does not tell us where demons came from. No legitimate or useful purpose is served by dwelling on the matter.
On the other hand, the Bible does tell us many things about demons. For example, demons are spirits (Matthew 8:16; Luke 24:39). Demons are always depicted as unclean, evil, and malevolent. They are associated with Satan"s influence (Matthew 9:34; 12:24,43,45; Luke 11:15). Demons also are shown to be conscious, intelligent entities who possess true knowledge of God and Christ. In Mark 1:24, a demon spoke to Jesus, "I know who you are"the holy one of God." Demons exercised volition and even locomotion (Matthew 12:44-45).
Demons frequently caused physical and/or mental illness. For instance, in Matthew 9:32, the victim of demon possession experienced "dumbness," i.e., the inability to talk. Such illnesses were distinguishable from the demons themselves (Matthew 4:24). Some say demons have never actually existed, and that the Bible account of demons is simply the superstitious, pre-scientific explanation of epilepsy and other physical or emotional disorders. But in the New Testament, a clear distinction is drawn between demons and the illnesses that a demon might cause. Some demons had superhuman strength (Mark 5:4; Acts 19:16). No reason is given in the New Testament for why some individuals were singled out for demon possession. Included were men (Matthew 9:32), women (Luke 8:2), and even children (Mark 7:30).
What was the purpose of demons, and what was their relationship to God? It is clear from the Bible that God had ultimate control over them. For example, in Luke 10:17, the seventy returned from their preaching tour and said to Jesus, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us through your name." A careful study of the New Testament will disclose the fact that demon possession was divinely permitted to show the supreme authority of Christ and His inspired representatives. During His earthly stay, Jesus demonstrated His power over: (1) nature and the created order (Mark 4:31); (2) disease (Mark 1:32-34); (3) physical substances (John 2:9); (4) death (John 11:44); and (5) the spirit realm and Satan (Mark 1:27). This supreme authority and manifestation of power set the stage for the establishment of His kingdom. In Luke 11:20, Jesus said: "But if I, with the finger of God, cast out demons, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you." The reader is urged to study carefully John 12:31, Ephesians 2:2 and 4:8, Colossians 2:15, Acts 10:38, Luke 10:17-20, and Matthew 12:28-29. John explained that "he who commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose, the son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil" (1 John 3:8). John"s statement correlates well with Hebrews 2:14, where the writer states: "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil."
These passages show that when Christ effected His death, resurrection, and kingdom, Satan"s power was dealt a blow that resulted in a measure of limitation. He was restrained to the extent that direct, supernatural influence over a human being ended. Just as the ability to expel demons has ceased (Mark 16:17; 1 Corinthians 13:8-10), so the ability of demons to possess humans has ceased. When direct miraculous ability gradually ceased as the apostolic age drew to a close, so demonic activity also ceased.
That is the Bible picture. This picture is very different from the claims being made today regarding demon possession and Satanism. In the New Testament, Jesus expelled evil spirits publicly and in the presence of multitudes (Luke 4:36). But much of the work of exorcists today is hidden and only reported second hand. The alleged exorcisms by those who are daring enough to operate publicly are contrived and unconvincing.
In the New Testament, expulsion of demons was achieved by a word with immediate results. For example, "Jesus rebuked the demon; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour" (Matthew 17:18). Read also Acts 19:12. But exorcism today is a long, drawn-out process in which multiple attempts are made. In the New Testament, demon possession caused the malfunction of otherwise normal body traits. You simply do not find in the New Testament the theatrical manifestations alleged by those who affirm demon possession occurs today"fire from the mouth, bulging eyes, transparent teeth, green slime spewing forth, and electricity emitted from fingers.
Another significant difference between demon possession in the Bible and alleged demon possession today is that in the New Testament, demons were respectful of deity and acknowledged Jesus as the "holy one of God" (Mark 1:24; 3:11). Demons knew that Jesus ultimately would banish them to torment (Matthew 8:29). They did not blaspheme deity. But claims today include curses and blasphemy directed against God.
In view of these biblical facts, what must we conclude? Demons do not possess people today. The Old Testament predicted that demon possession would cease in the first century.
[blockquote]In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness. And it shall come to pass in that day says the Lord of hosts that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land and they shall no more be remembered; and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land (Zechariah 13:1-2).[/blockquote]
In addition, the Bible everywhere condemns those who practice spiritualism, sorcery, witchcraft, astrology, and all other forms of divination. Moses warned the Israelites as they were about to enter Canaan:
[blockquote]When you enter the land which the Lord your God gives you, you shall not learn to imitate the detestable things of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For whoever does these things is detestable to the lord; and because of these detestable things the lord your God will drive them out before you. You shall not be blameless before the Lord your God. For those nations, which you shall dispossess, listen to those who practice witchcraft and to diviners, but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you to do so (Deuteronomy 18:9-14, NASB).[/blockquote]
To God, all of these magical arts were an abomination.

Isaiah declared that all of Babylon"s sorceries and spells would be unable to avert the punishment that God would inflict against her (Isaiah 47:8-15). This observation points to a significant conclusion. The Bible repeatedly portrays those who claim sorcerous powers as fakes and counterfeits (e.g., Genesis 41:8; Exodus 7:10-12; Daniel 2:2-11). Even the action of the so-called "witch of Endor," who actually is identified in the text as a "medium" (NKJV) or having a "familiar spirit" (KJV) [1 Samuel 28:3ff.], must be deemed fraudulent for three reasons: (1) she was surprised that a spirit actually appeared (vs. 12); (2) she thought the spirit was elohim"the Hebrew word for God or gods (vs. 13); and (3) she did not recognize Samuel, but had to describe him to Saul who in turn recognized him (vs. 14). In the New Testament, the claims of both Simon in Acts 8 and Elymas in Acts 13 also were bogus. All these sorcerers and astrologers were fakes who had no real power"though they fooled a lot of people into thinking they did.
Astrology, witchcraft, sorcery, spiritualism, and yes, those who claim to be "psychic mediums," are all condemned by God. Why? Because these practices implicitly present themselves as substitutes for God, the one and only true power of the Universe, and His Word, the one and only valid spiritual guide. No wonder witchcraft is listed as a work of the flesh (Galatians 5:20). No wonder the Bible declares in no uncertain terms that "sorcerers...shall have their part in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death" (Revelation 21:8). The only "crossing over" that is actually occurring is by those whose spirits exit their bodies (i.e., they die) and who then are transported to the hadean realm to await the Day of Judgment and eternity. Their abode is fixed and unchanging (Luke 16:26-31).
CONCLUSION

The Bible speaks decisively and definitively on the subject of demon possession, witchcraft, astrology, sorcery, divination, enchantment, and wizardry. With a united and concerted voice, God"s Word condemns it and pronounces it false. People could be possessed by demons for a brief period of time in the first century. But this phenomenon has ceased. Those who wish to be Christians"those who wish to be pleasing to God"will give no credence to such claims today. No doubt, many of us like to break open that fortune cookie at the oriental restaurant and read the note inside; we might even occasionally glance at our horoscope in the newspaper"but only as a source of amusement, because there is absolutely no validity to it. The moment a person puts trust in such, and thinks that the future is determined by such, he or she is trusting in something other than God, and is sinning.
The only reliable guide in life is the Bible. It is a lamp to our feet and a light to our path (Psalm 119:105). The Word of God is living and active, quick and powerful (Hebrews 4:12). It is the sword of the Spirit (Ephesians 6:17). By that Word we will be judged one day (John 12:48). May we set aside all other claims to guidance and rely solely and strictly upon the Bible, wonderful words of life"the all-sufficient and authoritative Word of God.
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Old 07-24-2005, 02:33 AM   #10
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Default RE: Are Tongues For Today?

Yes I do beleive in speaking in tongues. This I know is a false doctrine to the following

1. Chucrch of Christ
2. Baptist
3. Evangelicals.

I have not read the other post yet. I put thisdoctrine with those few who have seen visions. To me it is a personal experience. I make no doctrine out of it. I have spoken in tongues before. I went 6 years to an Assembly of God college which is now a university. Yes, to the AG it is doctrine. This is one reason I bailed out of that college. I am prepared for any negatives replys. I do not believe in the tongues I have seen in churches. Also, I have been attending a Chucrch of Christ. To keep from confusion , strife asnd divisions I plan to keep my experiences to myself. I enjoy their simplistic style and Bible filled service. I am thier guest . Tongues is a gift not a doctrine.

Here is how I spoke in tongues as told before. I was a Christian now for about 1 1/2 months. I was in the army. We lived in a long concrete building. After 5:00 PM it was your time. Most played poker and got drunk. I would sit on the edge on my bunk and play hymns on my guitar. Around 7:00 PM that night ....5 black men ,,high and rowdy began taunting me saying " LOOK AT THAT ^%&% FOOL!!! My hand began to shake. It was an acoustic guitar. I didn't know what was going on. Inside my heart I heard the words,"Keep playing for me son." So in faith I did. I was playing Are you Washed in the Blood of the Lamb... with a loud voice. While the men about 12 feet away continued to jump, point and laugh I noticed a bright light right in front of them. I glanced right back down at the hymnal. My inner conscience said," That don't belong there." I looked again and the light was a little bigger. All of a sudden I was overcome by magnificent electricity. I thought it was the rapture. My locker door was open and I had a piture of Jesus. My strings shocked me a little, I tossed the guitar aside and immediately crashed to my knees in honor of who He was. All of this in 1 second. His presense in gulfed me. I wanted to say something. I opened my mouth and the men told me later it sounded like I was speaking Italian. for about 30 seconds. I have never spoke that language in my life.That has never happened again. At the exact time of this all 5 went back a few steps. They never saw what I saw but they did say this loudly," DON'T EVER MAKE FUN OF HIM AGAIN ," and they walked off.
Yes I guess I believe in speaking in tongues.

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