I believe Judyboi and myself have been told we have skirted the issue on what the office of Elder is. I have posted a reply on page 7 of another post to Dave, but since some dod not always read that far into a thread, I thought it would be good to post here. Sorry for inconvience to some. It was addressed to Dave.
Dave,
No offense, but I don't think you have a clue what an "Elder" is. If you don't don't feel bad, most outseide of the Church do not. Let me explain. Oh and by the way, without insulting my good friend Mohonri-Matt, I think I am perfectly capable of answering questions on this site. I don't need to run to an "Elder" to answer your questions. Matt enjoys this sort of thing a bit more than I do. He can also make himself more available to you than I can. I asked him to come to the board partly for that and the fact that he is one of the most capable people of offering a reply that would be in conjunction/harmony with the teachings of the Church.I can only take a few short minutes to reply at work.Because he hasmore time and interest, he will generally give a more detailed explanation. If I so desired and actually had the time,I would give more detail as well. However,I do not have much avaulable time in the evenings due to Church callings, family life and an interest in other things.
That said,I do not wish to insult to any other LDS Members of our faith on this site as well. Judyboi can hold his own and does well at defending his beliefs. Hikchick, 300 winnieand others I have not really had the joy of conversing with, but they know what they are talking about.As to their capabilities, I certainly didn't see any of these membersrunning off screaming for help from some "Elder" or someonemore "experienced" thanthey are. In particular, Judyboi has stood like a man and answered the best he can. I think he has done a fine job and I wish more of our young men were as stalwart as he is (Whether they are LDS or not).
As the word, title and office of Elder, let me explain. Elder is an office in the Mechizedek Priesthood to which a worthy male may be ordained at the age of 18 or older. This comes after a young man has worthily completed the duites and offices of a Deacon (ages 12-14) Teacher (14-16) and Priest (16-18) in the Aaronic Priesthood. You are probably most familiar with the title of a Mormon missionary who has received the Melchizedek Priesthood at age 18 and has decided to serve a 2 year mission for the Church somewhere in the world. The missionary is assigned a particular mission and is known as an "Elder." So for 2 years we are called Elder so and so. After we return home and are released, one still retains the office of Elder, but the title does not apply as much. We are almost aleways then referred to as Brother so and so (For the Sister missionarieswho serve they arecalled "Sister" and retain that title as well once they are released.)
The "name" Elder can also apply as a general title for all bearers of the the Melchizedek Priesthood office they hold (See Doctine and Covenants 20:38).Thusour General authorities of the Church are also called Elder even though their office in the Priesthood is High Priest or greater. So,I myself as a Melchizedek Priesthood holder can also be called an Elder (no I am not a general authority)even though the office I hold in the Melchizedek Priesthood is that of a High Priest. This does not make me better or worse that any of my brethren.For certain callings within the church, one must not only hold the Melchizedek Priesthood, but be ordained to the office of High Priest. These offices include. Bishop (orCounselor in a Bishopric)High Counselor (who support the Stake President), Stake President (or His Counselors), Apostle, Patriarch or Prophet.
Those who hold the higher priesthood have the authority to bestow the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, to give blessings of healing and comfort by the laying on of hands as well. In addition, those who are called as Bishops, Stake Presidents and general authorites Apostles and Prophets are called as common judges to help discern and guide individuals with specific counsel and areas of worthiness concerning their Church Membership. I hope that some of this helps.
Now before I get bashed on this by someone stating "But the Bible doesn't have this organozation in the Ancient Early Chritian Church" may I state clearly that it certainly did. I have given prior scriptures for all to refer to within the pages of the Bible that refer to the offices of Deacon, Priest, Bishop, Elder, High Priest, Apostle, Prophet, etc. If there are further questions please refer to the siteI gave before which was. http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/restoring/chap05.html
Hope this helps. God Bless.
Porter.
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"The Lord commands us to be peacemakers. This is more than peace keeping. Peacemaking is an active thing that requires much greater effort at making peace happen rather than just keeping ones peace."
Elder is an office in the Mechizedek Priesthood to which a worthy male may be ordained at the age of 18 or older. This comes after a young man has worthily completed the duites and offices of a Deacon (ages 12-14) Teacher (14-16) and Priest (16-18) in the Aaronic Priesthood.
I Timothy chapter three give the qualifications for bishops and deacons. I cannot give a referance off the top of my head, but I believe the term "bishop" and "elder" are used interchangeably. Regardless, how can a 12-14 year old meet the qualifications of a deacon????????? According to Timothy they must be married, sober, and have children.
Chad
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"We can have no '50-50' allegiance in this country. Either a man is an American and nothing else, or he is not an American at all."-- Theodore Roosevelt
A wise man's heart is at his right hand; but a fool's heart at his left. Ecclesiasties 10:2
The last four letters in American..........I Can
The last four letters in Republican........I Can
The last four letters in Democrats.........Rats
Great question. In the early Christian Church, (According the the Early Church Father writings and others) older men were called as Deacons. Why, because many of the younger men or boys were not at the right age, there were not enough of them yet.Many of the ECF's and other sources stated that men were called who were married and had children.
This was the same when Joseph Smith reorganized the Church of Jesus Christ. There were not enough young men of age who could be called and ordained, therefore many older married men were called and ordained to this office.
Furthermore, when an individual is becomes a convert to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who are older than age 12, they still usually start out in the office of a Deacon. Why, so they can learn their Priesthood duties. If they are older, they generally will advance more quickly through the offices of the Priesthood. Same as in the Early church.
Hope this helps. God Bless.
Porter.
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"The Lord commands us to be peacemakers. This is more than peace keeping. Peacemaking is an active thing that requires much greater effort at making peace happen rather than just keeping ones peace."
It explains your beliefs, but it does not explain thecontradiction to scripture.
Again, I Timothy chapter 3, starting with verse 8, through verse 12.
"Likewise, must the deacons be grave, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure consicence. And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. Even so must their wives be grave, not sladerers, sober faithful in all things. Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well."
There are no exceptions, there are no statements that say "if he is married, he should be the husband of one wife", or "if he had children, they must rule them". The implications are very simple, at least to me. A deacon must be married, else he could not be the husband of one wife. A deacon must have children, else he could not rule them. A deacon must also be a male, in order to be a husband.
Their is no preisthood in the early New Testament church, at least nowhere along the same lines as the Old Testament and the Law of Moses. There is no authority given in an individual congregation other than the elders, and they govern within their own congregation--no more, no less.
The term "elder" almost always refers to and older person in the New Testament. There is one exception,where Peter decribes himself as an elder, I believe as in holding the office. There are no designations for children to hold these offices, or even young men. The term elder is a contradiction to a young man.
Chad
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"We can have no '50-50' allegiance in this country. Either a man is an American and nothing else, or he is not an American at all."-- Theodore Roosevelt
A wise man's heart is at his right hand; but a fool's heart at his left. Ecclesiasties 10:2
The last four letters in American..........I Can
The last four letters in Republican........I Can
The last four letters in Democrats.........Rats
__________________
"The Lord commands us to be peacemakers. This is more than peace keeping. Peacemaking is an active thing that requires much greater effort at making peace happen rather than just keeping ones peace."
What we have in that link is men's observations and analogies vs. the word of God. I put my faith in God--He sets and enforcesthe rules, regardless of how we would stretch or re-interpret them. The simple statements set forth in Timothy remain the same, and simply cannot be explained away. There is simply no Biblical authority for a child to hold the office of deacon, or elder; nor anyone that does not meet the requirements set forth by God. If you can show me otherwise, using the Bible only, I will stand corrected.
Chad
10 E.g. Ignatius insisted that "apart from [the bishops and elders] there is no elect Church, no congregation of holy ones, no assembly of saints." Ignatius, Trallians 3, in ANF 1:67.
15 Irenaeus, Against Heresies 4:8:3, in ANF 1:471. In fact, laymen in the patristic period did have an active role in the Church.
History shows that laymen took an active part in all of the internal workings of the Church. They had an important role to play in the liturgy, which was still, at that time, a "popular" liturgy, that is, a liturgy for the people. They had their word to say in the election of bishops, and the nomination of priests. They contributed to the drawing up of church laws and customs; prepared some of the matter for discussion at the councils, and even took part in them. They administered church properties, and it was an accepted thing that they should be allowed to preach. . . ; the records show that they often did so. LeClerq, J., "The Priesthood in the Patristic and Medieval Church," in Nicholas Lash and Joseph Rhymer, eds., The Christian Priesthood (London: Darton, Longman & Todd, 1970), 55.
However, in the Middle ages this all changed so that there developed a vast chasm between the clergy and the laity. See LeClerq, 56-62.
16 Sinclair B. Fergusen, David F. Wright, and J.I. Packer, eds., New Dictionary of Theology (Downers Grove, Illinois: InterVarsity Press, 1988), 531.
17 Noll, Christian Ministerial Priesthood, 43; cf. J.H. Elliot, The Elect and the Holy: An Exegetical Examination of I Peter 2:4-10 and the Phrase "Basileioun hierateuma" (Leiden: E.J. Brill, 1966), 223.
18 Origen, Homilies on Leviticus 9:1:3, translated by Gary W. Barkley (Washington D.C.: The Catholic University of America Press, 1990), FC 83:177.
19 Irenaeus, Against Heresies 4:33:7, in ANF 1:508, brackets in original; cf. Ignatius, Ephesians 5, in ANF 1:51.
20 Irenaeus, Against Heresies 4:26:2, in ANF 1:497, brackets in original.
291 Clement 44, in ANF 1:17. Jean Daniélou claims that these men were clearly the "heirs of the Twelve," and were different from any of the priesthood officers normally discussed. He also asserts that this institution must have been created by Christ Himself. Daniélou, The Theology of Jewish Christianity, 355.
30 From a Syriac appendage to a letter from Jesus to King Abgar, in Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History 1:13, in NPNF Series 2, 1:101.
45 Origen, On Prayer 28:9, translated by John J. O'Meara (New York: Newman Press, 1954), ACW 19:112.
46 Origen, Commentary on John 1:3, in ANF 10:298. However, Ignatius wrote that Christ was the only High Priest "by nature." Ignatius, Smyrnaeans 9, in ANF 1:90. Perhaps others can become "High Priests" by grace.
47Epistle of Barnabas 15, in ANF 1:147, brackets in original.
54Odes of Solomon 6, in Platt, ed., The Forgotten Books of Eden, 122.
55 Jung, C. G., "Transformation Symbolism in the Mass," in Joseph Campbell, ed., The Mysteries (Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 1955), 280-281.
56 One rationale for continuing the LDS practice of using water in the sacrament is that the Word of Wisdom, the LDS health code, forbids the drinking of alcoholic beverages. However, I am not suggesting that the early Christian Church had any such health code. The Word of Wisdom explicitly states that it was designed "in consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days. . . ." (D&C 89:4.) Therefore, there is no need to suppose that this revelation was a restoration of anything from a former dispensation, especially in light of the fact that the New Testament shows Jesus drinking wine.
57 Hegesippus, quoted in Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History 2:23, in NPNF Series 2, 1:125.
74The Pastor of Hermas, Sim. 5:1, 3, in ANF 2:33-34.
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"We can have no '50-50' allegiance in this country. Either a man is an American and nothing else, or he is not an American at all."-- Theodore Roosevelt
A wise man's heart is at his right hand; but a fool's heart at his left. Ecclesiasties 10:2
The last four letters in American..........I Can
The last four letters in Republican........I Can
The last four letters in Democrats.........Rats
I hold the office of elder in the Melchizedek Priesthood but I am not an Elder (MM)
Quote:
I made quite clear that there is a distinction between holding the office of elder in the Melchizedek Priesthood and bearing the title Elder (MM)
Quote:
The "name" Elder can also apply as a general title for all bearers of the the Melchizedek Priesthood office they hold (See Doctine and Covenants 20:38). Thus our General authorities of the Church are also called Elder even though their office in the Priesthood is High Priest or greater. So, I myself as a Melchizedek Priesthood holder can also be called an Elder. (Porter)
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Today' s small bucks are tomorrow' s trophies.
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What is a Mormon "Elder?"
