From Clint: Porter, is the Bible the inspired, inerrant Word of God?
A simple yes or no will do.
Porter: Yes, the bible is inspired. Is it inerrant or infallible, no absolutely not.
However, the Latter-day Christian argument is not necessarily one of whether the Bible is inspired, inerrant or infallible.
Mohonrimoriancumer quoted correctly in my opinion that the Latter-day Saint position. Which is we believe the Bible to the word of God insomuch that is is transcribed and translated correctly (From the original autographs up to and including present day versions.
I believe we would fall right in line with what I read and quote from one evangelical friend of mine.
Infallible, when applied to the Bible, means that it is fully trustworthy. Its text does not deceive the reader. "Traditionally, [conservative] Protestants have reserved the term [infallible]...to refer to the Bible as the only true source of faith and doctrine." However, it does not necessarily imply that every verse in the Bible is infallible. Some wiggle room is possible. During the General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church (USA) in 2001-JUN, officials from the PC (USA) stated: "Our confessions do teach biblical infallibility. Infallibility affirms the entire truthfulness of scripture without depending on every exact detail. However, there are details that are lacking and missing"
Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe that the Bible stands at the foundation of the Church itself. After all it was the very passages from James that inspired Joseph Smith to ask of God in Faith what if all religions were true.
In fact 3 years later passages from the Old and New Testaments provided the foundation for Josephs additional visions (Whether you want to believe them or not, your choice). However, he was quoted passages from Daniel, Malachi, Isaiah, Joel and others.
Even after completing translation of the Book of Mormon and organizing the Church of Christ he was instructed by the Lord to read and study and pray about the bible again. From this he prepared the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible (Although Official Latter-day Saint scripture supports the KJV).
The Church of Jesus Christ of Later-day Saints devotes two out of every four years for a study of the Bible. The Church particularly emphasizes doctrines taught from the bible such as 1) God speaking to living prophets (Amos 3:7) They also emphasis 2) the House of Israel and the importance of making and keeping covenants. All of these doctrines are found in the first five books of the Bible. There are many other scriptural doctrines from the Old Testament that we preach and teach.
More importantly we preach from the New Testament to include the teachings taught by Jesus and his apostles such as 1) Faith 2) Repentance 3) Covenant ordinances 4) Church offices 5) Priesthood organization 6) Missionary work 7) The Atonement 8) Resurrection and the list goes on.
The bible is essential to us because it also supports the Book of Mormon. One third of the writing of Isaiah are found in the Book of Mormon. In fact, they Lord teaches that the words of Isaiah are of the utmost importance and commands his followers to fervently study and pray about them Malachi"s teachings are in the book of Mormon are essential because the resurrected Jesus quoted them and emphasized them in his teachings that are part of 3rd Nephi in the book of Mormon.
One of the main reasons we believe in the bible is because the same teachings are in the Book of Mormon and vice versa. They both support each other (Again, you are left to agree or not).
Is the bible complete?
Although Latter-day Saints revere the bible are the word of God (as breathed by him) Joseph Smith and others recognized that translations do reflect totally the original words and intentions of the ancient prophets and other biblical writers. Joseph and others observed that our spiritual latitude and longitude can be determined in the original Hebrew with greater accuracy that the English versions.
While LDS Christians ACCEPT EXPLICITLY what the bible now says we believe more is to be accounted than is available than the original extant biblical record. In addition to the difficulties associated with translating from ancient to modern languages there are other scriptures that declare that original biblical texts have been corrupted or lost. My personal favorite scripture is found in John 21:25 since my whole goal in life is to become like Jesus Christ. Oh how I wish I could know more of his birth, His Childhood, His adolescence, visitations from angels, conversations he must have had with the Father and His Fathers response.
21:24 This is the disciple (John) which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true. 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
The world cannot possibly believe that all that Jesus has to say is contained in the Bible (Or the Book of Mormon or any other book of Scripture). I am positive that he shared much more exquisite details about his early life, his call to the ministry and death than what is recorded in the Four gospels. Wouldn"t it make sense that he would share the total agony of Gethsemane, how he felt about the betrayal of Judas, His infamous trial, the pain of being nearly flayed alive? Don"t you think that he would share more about the pain of bearing the cross? What about literally hanging on it? How about the Joy in His resurrection? How about his 40 day ministry thereafter?
No fellow Christians, I know he said and did other things that are not represented in the Bible. How I long for the day to know more about them. The Bible is wonderful and inspired, but not complete.
Important points concerning the FULL salvation of men is not found therein. I know it was either removed before original autograph or lost prior to original autograph. I fully believe what Joseph Smith said (and other LDS and Non-LDS sources are working on Finding out more on) "I believe the bible when it came from the pen of the original writers. Ignorant translators, careless transcribers or designing and corrupt priests have committed many errors" (Teaching os the Prophet Joseph Smith p. 327).
That said, LDS Christians have continued to trust the "general" accuracy of the biblical texts even thought we know that the text may not always be correct. Thus we study and revere the Bible. In fact in 1983 "The Year of the Bible." The First Presidency of the Church issues a very strong statement for members of the Church to support the bible and to put much time and study to it. Furthermore, they mandated that study should then turn into daily application. They stated this was one of the great purposes fro the Church producing an enhanced version of the King James Edition.
Anyways, I believe this to be an ample beginning to the topic/questions asked by Clint and I believe several of you asked questions that would be tied into this one.
God Bless,
Porter.
__________________
"The Lord commands us to be peacemakers. This is more than peace keeping. Peacemaking is an active thing that requires much greater effort at making peace happen rather than just keeping ones peace."
RE: Is the Bible Inerrent (A Response to Clint et al)
Bible(God's Word)-Not fallible; not capable of erring; entirely exempt from liability to mistake; unerring; inerrable, Not liable to fail, deceive, or disappoint; indubitable; sure; certain; as, infallible evidence; infallible success; an infallible remedy
RE: Is the Bible Inerrent (A Response to Clint et al)
"Do Mormons believe the same as Christians do?" The answer is No. And the reason for this is that the Bible is not their final authority.
I think what we have to recognize here is a fundamental division. Their source of authority is independent of the Scriptures. If the Bible contradicts it, it means nothing to them because their scriptures are the supreme authority. Now, how can you call yourself a Christian if you will not submit yourself to the words of Jesus Christ and to the New Testament documents? That is the finished revelation, once for all delivered to the saints. Besides, in Hebrews chapter one it says that, "God who spoke in times past to our fathers and the prophets has in these days spoken unto us in His Son." Jesus Christ is God's last word to man not Joseph Smith, not Doctrine and Covenants, not the Book of Mormon. Jesus Christ. So, we go and test their documents by the New Testament and by the words of the Lord Jesus Christ.
__________________
wayne
"There's room at the cross for you."
RE: Is the Bible Inerrent (A Response to Clint et al)
Moose and Motor,
Show me in the Bible where it says exactly where it says it is inerrantand infallible. Remember, the terms are often used interchangeably, however they don't mean the same thing. Quote me some verses here! Thanks.
God Bless.
Porter.
__________________
"The Lord commands us to be peacemakers. This is more than peace keeping. Peacemaking is an active thing that requires much greater effort at making peace happen rather than just keeping ones peace."
RE: Is the Bible Inerrent (A Response to Clint et al)
I have a few questions about this. If the bible is inerrant then why the differences in the empty tomb stories? Each Gospel lists different people at the tomb.Was the stone already moved before they got there or was there an earthquake? Can all of these versions be true at the same time?
RE: Is the Bible Inerrent (A Response to Clint et al)
[quote]ORIGINAL: Porter Rockwell
Moose and Motor,
Show me in the Bible where it says exactly where it says it is inerrantand infallible. Remember, the terms are often used interchangeably, however they don't mean the same thing. Quote me some verses here! Thanks.
God Bless.
Porter.
Is the Bible infallible?[/align]
Bob Prichard
Topic(s) --> Bible Infallibility Yes.Infallible means "incapable of erring, sure, certain, unerring." A close synonym for infallible is inerrant, which means "free from error." The Bible as revealed by God in the "original autographs" (original written copies) is both infallible and inerrant.The infallible Bible does not just "contain the Word of God," it IS the Word of God.Because it is infallible, it gives us all that we need for faith and practice in serving God. The Bible claims infallibility for itself. More than 2,000 times in the Old Testament "thus saith the Lord," or a similar phrase occurs. Surely the Lord was able to communicate His will accurately! Peter spoke of inspiration saying, "the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost"(2 Peter 1:21). The inspired writers wrote what God revealed to them. It was not their own message but the message of God that they recorded. Jesus said "the scripture cannot be broken" (John 10:35), meaning that it must be true. He said, "Verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled"(Matthew 5:18).The "jot" was yodh, the smallest letter of the Hebrew alphabet and the "tittle" was a simple pen stroke, or part of a letter. Thus Jesus asserted the infallibility of the written Word of God, even in the smallest details.
The New Testament claims the same inspired infallibility for the whole Bible. "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness"(2 Timothy 3:16). Since "all scripture is given by inspiration of God," then it must all be regarded as authoritative and infallible. If only part of it is authoritative or infallible, how will we choose what is authoritative and infallible, and what is not authoritative or without error? If we use man"s subjective opinion, we will end up being mislead. How much better it is to just accept all that God has revealed, rather than choosing the opinions of men!
Skeptics have long attacked what they perceived as errors in the Bible. When all the evidence is considered, however, the Bible still stands without error. All too often, what are perceived as errors are not errors at all, but simply the expression of different points of view of biblical authors, or misinterpretations of obscure texts, or simple misunderstandings. Too often the "errors" come from the preconceptions of critics concerning what they think the Bible ought to say, rather than what it really says.
What is really at stake in the question of biblical infallibility is the character of God. God cannot lie(Titus 1:2).He is omniscient or all knowing(Psalm 139). Since He knows all things and cannot lie, then His written Word, all of it, must be infallible. An infallible God can do no less than produce an infallible Bible. Just one error in His revealed Will would be enough to show that God is not God. Because we are limited in our understanding, we may not be able to explain every perceived error or inconsistency in the Bible, but we can accept it as the infallible Word of God because it comes from Him.
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Jesus said, "he who stands firm to the end will be saved" Mark 13:13.
Live Life in such a way that those who do not know Christ will come to know Him because they know you
RE: Is the Bible Inerrent (A Response to Clint et al)
Porter- here's a few verses (to get you started) where God's Word tells us that it is perfect and inerrent as is. The first verse I included specifically for Mormons.
# 1 Corinthians 14:36 Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached?
# 2 Corinthians 4:2 Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
# Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God.
# 1 Thessalonians 2:13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe.
# 2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
# Titus 2:5 . . . to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God.
# Hebrews 1:3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.
# Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
# Hebrews 6:5 . . .who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age,
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RE: Is the Bible Inerrent (A Response to Clint et al)
Well, it seems to me that a god who cannot preserve his word---who fails to make sure that his Creation has his infallable, inerrant, totally accurate Word----is a puny god. (with a small "g"). Maybe the mormon god is like that, I don't know.
But My God has preserved His Holy Word. It is inerrant, infallable, and accurate.
RE: Is the Bible Inerrent (A Response to Clint et al)
Quote:
ORIGINAL: Porter Rockwell
Moose and Motor,
Show me in the Bible where it says exactly where it says it is inerrantand infallible. Remember, the terms are often used interchangeably, however they don't mean the same thing. Quote me some verses here! Thanks.
God Bless.
Porter.
Bible(God's Word)-Not fallible; not capable of erring; entirely exempt from liability to mistake; unerring; inerrable, Not liable to fail, deceive, or disappoint; indubitable; sure; certain; as, infallible evidence; infallible success; an infallible remedy
Is the Bible Inerrent (A Response to Clint et al)
