DEEP QUESTION TO PONDER

[TURKEY FAN]

If GOD, created man and everything else here on earth. Who or what created GOD?? Where did our father come from?

[Rebel Hog]

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WHO CREATED GOD?
It is easy to make an argument for God"™s existence from a cosmological standpoint. As the years have gone by, a growing amount of scientific data has accumulated which negates atheistic assumptions about how matter and the cosmos came into existence and how it has arrived at its present condition. As a science teacher and public lecturer on the compatibility of belief in God and science, I have, been impressed with an increasing awareness on the part of many scientists and theologians that science and religion are symbiotic disciplines.
One question which inevitably comes up in a discussion of this nature is what is the origin of God? If God created matter/energy, and designed the systems that have propelled matter into its present arrangement, who or what accomplished that for God? Why is it any more reasonable to believe that God has always "œbeen"� than it is to say that matter has always "œbeen"�? As Carl Sagan has said, "œIf we say that God has always been, why not save a step and conclude that the universe has always been?"� (Cosmos, p. 257).
From a purely scientific standpoint, it is easy to demonstrate that matter cannot be eternal in nature. The universe is expanding from what appears to be a beginning point in space/time, which appears to be a one time event. Hydrogen is the basic fuel of the cosmos, powering all stars and other energy sources in space. If the fuel of the universe has been used eternally, that fuel will eventually be depleted, but the evidence is that the cosmological gas gauge, while moving toward "œempty,"� is yet a long way from being there"”a condition incompatible with an eternal universe. The second law of thermodynamics insists that the cosmos is moving toward a condition of disorder, sometimes referred to as "œheat death."� Even in an oscillating universe, things ultimately run out of energy and "œdie."� All of these evidences, and several others we have not made reference to, show that matter cannot be eternal, as Dr. Sagan and his associates would like to believe. However, this does not mean that we automatically accept the hypothesis that God is the Creator. Why is it not equally invalid to suggest that God has always been?
The problem here is that many people have a mistaken concept of God. If we conceive of God as physical, anthropomorphic (like man) being, the question of God"™s origin is valid. However, such a concept of God is alien to the Bible and to common sense. Consider the following descriptions of God from the Bible:
[ul]John 4: 24
God is a Spirit:...
Matthew 16:17
...for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my father which is in heaven.
Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that He should...; [/ul]Obviously, the descriptions and concepts of God given in these passages are that God is a spiritual entity. He exists outside of the three-dimensional, physical world in which we live.
The Bible further supports this concept of God in the following passages:
[ul]Jeremiah 23:23-24
Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off? ...Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord.
2 Chronicles 2:6
But who is able to build a house, seeing the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain Him?...
Acts 17:28
For in Him we live, and move, and have our being;... [/ul]Not only is God described as being outside space, but He is also described as being outside of time. Consider the following:
[ul]2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Psalm 90:4
For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
Psalm 102:27
But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.
Acts 1:7
...It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in His power. [/ul]If God is a being that is unlimited in time, and if He has access to every piece of time as if it were now, the question of who created God is an invalid question. The problem is like asking a student to draw a four-sided triangle. The terminology is self-contradictory.
When asked "œWho or what created God?,"� we are making the assumption that God was created. If God exists outside of time and space, and if He is the Creator of time and space, He obviously was not created! God began the beginning! This is why He says, "œI am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."�
God created time. The statement of Genesis, "œIn the beginning God created the heaven and the earth,"� is making reference to the creation of time. The reason that things like heat death, the expansion of the universe, and the depletion of hydrogen do not apply to God is because He is outside of time. God has always been. He not only began time; He will also end it. When time ends, all matter and all mankind will enter eternity"”a timeless condition free of the negative things that time brings upon us now.
[ul]2 Peter 3:10-11
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,...
Revelation 21:4
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. [/ul]The agnostic position that there is nothing that can be said to support God"™s existence that cannot be said against that existence cannot, in the opinion of the author, stand in the face of this evidence.

© John N. Clayton


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[xd9x19]

God is eternal and self-exists. He exists (in three forms - Father, Son and Holy Spirit - yet One), always has existed and always will exist. That is one of the great theological truths of the Bible. Moses asked God whom he should say sent him to lead the children of Israel out of Egypt. God told him to tell them "I AM" had sent him.

Or, in more thoelogical terms:

All other spirits are created and so have a beginning. They owe their existence to another. God does not depend upon the world or anyone in it for his existence. The world depends on God for its existence. Contrary to those theologians who say we cannot know anything about God in himself, Jesus revealed that God has life in himself (John 5:26). The ground of God's being is not in others, for there is nothing more ultimate than himself. God is uncaused, the one who always is (Exod. 3:14). To ask who caused God is to ask a self-contradictory question in terms of Jesus' view of God. Another term conveying the concept of God's self-existence is "aseity." It comes from the Latin a, meaning from, and se, meaning oneself. God is underived, necessary, nondependent existence. Understanding that God is noncontingent helps to understand how God is unlimited by anything, or infinite, free, self-determined, and not determined by anything other than himself contrary to his own sovereign purposes.

[Rebel Hog]

Acts 17:29
[29] Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.



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[gman1969]

ORIGINAL: TURKEY FAN

If GOD, created man and everything else here on earth. Who or what created GOD?? Where did our father come from?

He is the uncreated One. He has always been, for there never wasa time when He was not. As xd9x19 said, He is eternal and self-existent. Everything in creation has lifethrough Him. But He has life in Himself.

[Leafrivermac]

God always has and always will exist (Genesis 21:33; Deuteronomy 33:27; Romans 16:26).No one created God because He is eternal "“ He existed even before time was created.God created everything, the universe, the world, plants, animals, human beings (Genesis chapters 1-2).God is the uncaused cause. God is the timeless eternal One. Since we are created beings and exist in a world limited by time, it is impossible for us to understand how God can always have existed.We, as finite human beings, should not expect to be able to understand an infinite God (Romans 11:33-36).What we know for sure is this:God is the Creator and the only thing that was not created.

Some will say that "scripture does indeed say that God is eternal, everlasting, but that in itself does not mean that God did not have a beginning, only that He will always be." I believe that God always was and always will be, but if pressed to find scripture at this time that uses terminology that flat out says that God did not have a beggining, I would'nt be able to do it. So I guess I'm asking for scripture. G-man alluded to a scripture maybe when he says "there never was a time when he was not". But then again time began from man's perspective on the first day and God was before that.

[mr-pirk]

Turkey Fan I can understand why a person might ask the question asyou askedit in the two ways you have.
It just shows you are human. We as humans tend to apply what we see around us to the understanding of what we try to understand.
You would be mentaly handicapped is you didn't. We ALL do it.

What you will come to understand about the"IS", may be explained this way.

If you have a hampster and you keep it in one of those little round hampster balls(Time) its whole life. You never allow it to see anything move around except for things in those little hampster balls.
If that hampster has the gift of reason he would most likely come to the understanding that NOTHING moves around if it isn't moving around in one of those little hampster balls.

Now you are that hampster who has been given the gift of reason..... you see a very hugh tall Being come into view that has the power to make night into day... he flips a light switch to"ON".... to you he is a God...you decide this is God and he must have a REALLY big neat hampster ball.

It takes something that has seen a Being move about without even a single thought of being limited by a hampster ball to give you a hint of what "IS".

That "something" is Jesus and the way he tells us is called the bible.
To really throw you for a loop...once you begin to understand what "something" is telling you about, the "something" is the very"something" named "Jesus" thatis explaining itto you.

We are used to everything we see having a "begining", even the universe it's self.
God doesn't exist by the rules he set forth for man's world toexist by.

Asthe Masked Man recently stated.... the Potter (God) doesn't become subject to the forms he has chosen for the "Pots" (you and me and ALL of his creation) to exist in.

God isn't subject to having to having a begining...or an ending.

An intresting side note.... we mostly don't have trouble understanding the concept of something goingforward in timeforever, but we most times have trouble understanding that if a Being can go forward in time forever....then...play the film backwards and stop it and play it normaland you see that the Being is still going on forward in timeforever.....no matter how far back...if you stop the film and look at it the normal way...it is always going forward.

So if God can "be" no matter how far forward we look.....then the other must be true...... go back 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0
Eons of time and look forward and the sight is STILL exactly the same....... A BEING existing outside of "time".

Going forward or backward... if you can understand the concept of God going forward forever...then you can understand God going forever backward in time and you can understand God exists outside of time.

Mrs-Pirk tells me I go around the world twice to wind up next door in my explaintions of things, sorry if I did that here.

Thanks
Mr-Pirk

[North Texan]

you decide this is God and he must have a REALLY big neat hampster ball.

[leafriverlizzie]

Mrs-Pirk tells me I go around the world twice to wind up next door in my explaintions of things, sorry if I did that here.

Mr. Pirk, that may be so but that is what makes it so interesting to see your posts. Some people's posts are very long, and it is hard at times to read them because of it, but it is always interesting and easy to ready your posts, the longer the better! I don't know about others, but I like to know more than just the "because". I like to know the "why" also, or the "how you got to the because". It helps me understand the "because" better. Did anybody understand that? Lol! Just keep doing what you are doing. It shows how well you have thought things out. By the way, as always, that was a very good post you made.

[DaveH]

Mr Pirk said it better than I can. For the scripture that backs it up, the first verse to pop into my mind was " . . . from everlasting to everlasting thou art God." I don't have the reference, but it looks to be one of the Psalms.