John 10:Verse30 Are God & Jesus one in the same.

[Chuck7]

Friends this was so supposed to have waited for tomorrow but Snooky and Leaf are biting at the bit. I will give my comments later concerning this verse.

THIS IS A DEBATE!!READERS TAKE NOTE THESE GUYS LOVE EACH OTHER , THEY ARE DEBATING .
John10:30 I and my Father are one.
Our debate will be on.....Are they the same or two serparate identities?

Here are Snooky's comments.
Verse 18 Jesus claims again to be God when he says he will raise himself from the dead.
II Cor 1:9 Tells us that God raises the dead.
John 2:18-21 Jesus also gave this as a sign to the Jews when asked for a sign, Destroy this temple and in three days, I will raise it up., But this spoke of the temple of his body.
Eph 4 There is one body, (not two) and one Spirit, (not two) even as ye are called in one hope (not two) of your calling; One Lord, (not two), one faith, (not two) one baptisn, (not two) One God, (not two) and Father of all, who is above all, and through you all.
Mal 2:10 Have we not all one Father? Hath not one God created us?
Col 1:13-19Kingdom of his dear son V:15 who is the image, (that which can be seen)of the invisible God. V:16 For by him, (Jesus, the Son, the image of the invisible God) were all things created. V:17 he (Jesus) is before all things, (in the beginning). V:19 in him, (Jesus the Son, The Word, the image of the invisible God, the head of the church,) shall ALL FULNESS DWELL. There is nothing outside of Jesus, that was not also dwelling in him. He that hath seen me Phillip hath seen the Father. I and my Father are One.All of God could not be confined in such a small space because God fills all and is in all, but everything that God is, andwas, is in Jesus. Is 9:6 The Son shall be called The Mighty God. Rev 1:8 saith the Lord, (Jesus)which is, (present) and which was, (ages past) and is to come, (future ages) the Almighty. Is 43:3-15+25For I am the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, thy Savior, (Jesus is the Savior of the world) V10 and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. V 11 I, even I am the Lord; and beside me there is no Savior. V 12 ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, that I am God. V 15 I am the Lord, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King, (Jesus is the King of Kings, and the Lord Of Lords). Is 44:6 Thus saith the Lord, the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I, (King and redeemer) am the first, amd I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Is 60:16 I the Lord, (made that same Jesus both Lord and Christ) am thy Savior, (call his name Jesus for he shall save his people from their sins) and thy redeemer, (Gal 4:4-5 sent forth his son to redeem them) the might One, (not mighty two or three)of Jacob. Hear O Israel; the Lord thy God is One Lord and Him only shalt thou serve.

[etothepii]

However, there are verses that distinguish between God and Jesus' wills, that say Jesus is subservient to God, that say Jesus is the mediator between us and God... and many others that make distinctions between God and Jesus. They cannot be ignored...

[Chuck7]

Jim,
I am presently getting my facts together as you speak. I will be coming from that angle.
Probers15:28 aThe heart of the righteous studieth to answer:
Chuck

[Chuck7]

First I"™d like to confess of my lack of skills to even debate this subject. This subject here is the reason for many of our different denonminations. I believe that God and Jesus are two separate identities if you would.

1. When I read the Bible I believe the simplest interpretation is probably the real one. God has a Son. That is black and white. If you ask any child on the street are Jesus and God the same they will probably say no. "œFor God sent His Son into the world."� In order to come up with the idea that they are the same one has to do a lot of explaining and for me it still doesn"™t click. I know there are verses where He says to Phillip "œIf you have seen me you have seen the Father."� However, He also has said that no one has seen the Father and lived. I could go on and on but let"™s look at this from another angle.
2. . I also want to look at a great man of faith that has baptized more than I will even witness to. He actually built 300 churches. He found a heathen country and left it 90% Christian in his day. They in his day said, "œ Saint Patrick ,can you please explain to us how Jesus and God are one."� It was Patrick"™s habit to fast. After prayer and seeking the Lord he picked a shamrock/ a three leaf clover to explain how they are connected but separate.
3. Snooky"¦Commentaries my friend are only Christians who are making comments. You are a commentator as you have already commented concerning this subject. When I seek help from commentators it doesn"™t make me any less spiritual. I sometimes want to confirm with what I came up with. This is what one commentator said regarding this subject.`if the sense of this expression is, that the Father and the Son are one, as the Nazarenes understand and believe it, it will be found that Jesus himself destroys this saying, as it is written in (Mark 13:32) , for saith Jesus, "that day and that hour, there is knoweth, not the angels, nor the Son, but the Father only"; lo, these words show, that the Father and the Son are not one, since the Son does not know what the Father knows.''

In conclusion I also agree. That Jesus really was praying to His father, That He really spent all night praying to His Father, that Jesus doesn"™t know the hour when the world ends but..The Father does. That Jesus really is sitting NEXT to the Father in Heaven. As Romans 8 says All three are making intercession for us.
But"¦as St. Patrick said they are the same in regard to the same mind and will.
Chuck

[Chuck7]

Snooky,
I would like to make a comment on this that you posted.
"Eph 4 There is one body, (not two) and one Spirit, (not two) even as ye are called in one hope (not two) of your calling; One Lord, (not two), one faith, (not two) one baptisn, (not two) One God, (not two) and Father of all, who is above all, and through you all. "
Did you notice that there were one Lord and at the end of your verse and one Father. The one body I believe is referring to His church.
Chuck

[Judyboi]

I think Chuck has hit it right on the head. There is throughout the Bible reference of the Father and His Son. I believe that when it states that the Father and Son are "one" that it is saying that they are one in purpose as that was a common way to phrase it back then.

[Chuck7]

I appreciate the encouragement Johnathan,
Chuck

[Snooky]

Brethern; Don't think that I am offended at all if you don't agree with me here. I think we can disagree without becomeing disagreeable, if not we should have a prayer meeting until we cease to be disagreeable. I hope no one gets offended if I disagree with them, each is just expressing their personal views on the scripture. Great peace have they that love thy law and nothing shall offend them.
I think we get confused many times because we fail to realize that Jesus was 100% God. He was also 100% human at the same time that he was God. There was no fleshly body connected to God until God took upon himself theform of a servant and was made in the likness of sinful flesh. 1 Tim 3:16 God, (there is but one God) was manifest in the flesh. John 4:24 God is a spirit. Luke 24:39 a spirit hath not flesh and bones. Heb 9:22 without the shedding of blood is no remission. Until the birth of Jesus, there was none that was worthy to shed his blood for our sins, so God, because of his great love for us, became a man that he might have a sinless, blood sacrifice to offer for fallen mankind. God didn't send his little boy to die, (what kind of father would that be?)he himself became a man that he might be able to die in our stead. While upon the earth, he was a God/man. He never ceased to be God, he just took upon himself afleshly body. He was still able to speak as God and he also spoke as a man. As God he knew all things, as a man he only knew the things of man. He was and still is our savior and at the same time he is our judge, at the same time he is the great physician, ect. He is many things, but he is still the One True God of the bible regardless of all the other roles he may fulfill. Therefore we just need to ask if he is speaking as God Almighty or as thefleshly Son who was born of Mary? When he was hungry, was it as God Almighty or as the fleshly form of the servant? When he was weary, was it as God or as man? Isn't that what was said in John 3:31-32 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testamony.
Have you ever noticed tha the scripture never one time says, "God the son"? It always says The Son of God. There is a reason.
Have you also noticed that the scripture never says, "the eternal Son"? The Sonship had a starting point when the angels said, "For unto you is born this day in the city of David a savior, which is Christ the Lord". Prior to that time Jesus, the Son of God, was only there in prophecy. Prior to that time there was just God. God spoke all things into existance, yet the bible says that all things were made by Jesus and for Jesus and without Jesus was not anything made that was made. Jesus was the Word, the same was in the beginning and created all things. The Word was made flesh. John chapter #1.
Rev 4:2 Says that ONE sat on the throne. If Jesus and the Father are 2 separate beings, which one sits on the Throne Of God? Which one is the greater and which one is the lesser? If they are equal would there not have to be two thrones, one for the Father and another thronefor the Son? Would there not also have to be a third throne for the Holy Ghost? Could it be that 1 John 5:7 contains the truth that gives us the reason for just one throne? 1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these THREE ARE ONE. Jesus said, "I and my Father are one".
It is a historical fact that the doctrine of the trinity as taught today was developed in the 2nd century by what is now known as the Catholic Church. It is historical fact that the doctrine of the trinity as taught today was adopted by church in 325 AD at the council of Nicea.
It is a biblical truth that we are to earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered to the saints. When was it delivered? Not in the second century. Not in 325 AD at Nicea.
We are built upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the Chief Cornerstone. No other foundation can a man lay than that which is laid. Jusus said if we build not on that rock, our house would fall and great would be the fall thereof. Strait is the gate and narrow is the way, and few there be that find it. Strive to enter ye in at the strait gait.
Let's go treasure hunting!! Everyone is looking for a pearl of great price!! The bible is our map to the hidden treasure!! Where do we start??
Col 2:2-3 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all RICHES of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of The Father, and of Christ; In whom are hid ALL THE TREASURES OF WISDOM AND KNOWLEDGE. Not shouting here, just drawing your attention to the point I am trying to make.
Paul, the Apostle to the gentiles, that would be us, wrote in Gal 1:6-12 I marvel that you are so soon removed from him (not them) that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another (there is only one gospel); but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we HAVE (past tense) preached unto you, let him be accursed. (remember that the doctrine of the Trinity as taught today wasn't accepted by the church until 325 AD). V:11 but I certify you brethern, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. What did that revelation that Paul teach him? What did Paul preach? Col 2:9 For in him (Jesus) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

[Chuck7]

Brother Snooky,

Alot of those verses are way out of context. Those last verses that start with Galations 1 had nothing to do with a trinity doctrine. It was about Christians being tempted to go back under the law instead of salvation by faith. There are also many other out of context scriptures. We should go over little chunks at a time.
Chuck

[Leafrivermac]

Amen Snooky, Everything you've said is pure truth. Your post pretty well says it all and leaves me without much to add at this point. I would like to stress a point you brought up a little more. I'm sure that many christians agree that Jesus was God and man. I have heard it said at several different denominational churches that Jesus was 100% man and 100% God. I feel that it is essential to really get a grasp of this if one is to have understanding. From the bible we see that Jesus the Christ had two distinct natures in a way that no other human being has ever had. One nature is human or fleshy, . .the other is divine , or Spirit. Jesus was both fully man and fully God. The name Jesus refers to the eternal Spirit of God (the Father) dwelling in the flesh. We can use the name Jesus when talking about either aspect or both. When we say Jesus died on the cross, we mean His flesh died on the cross. When we say Jesus lives in our hearts, we mean His Spirit is there. Most questions about the Godhead can be resolved if we properly understand the dual nature of Jesus. When we read in scripture about Jesus, we should determine whether it describes His deity, his humanity, or both. Whenever Jesus speaks in scripture we need to ask if He is speaking from His position as a human, as God, or both. We should not think of two persons in the Godhead or of two Gods, but of the divine Spirit and authinic human flesh.
In every way that we humans can speak of our humanity and our relationship to God, so could Jesus, except for sin. Yet He could also speak and act as God. He could sleep one minute and calm the storm the next. He could speak as a human and then as God, while being both at the same time.
Remember tho that Jesus is fully God and not just an annointed man. At the same time He was fully human . . .not having just the appearance of humanity. He had a dual nature unlike anything we have, and we can't ad4equatley compare our existance and experiance to His. What would seem strange or impossible if applied to a mere human becomes understandable when viewed in the context of One who is both fully God and fully human at the same time.