Moose, I gave you a long list of Bible verses that prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are wrong on this
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Clint, Chuck, and anyone else who is following this:
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Moose, I gave you a long list of Bible verses that prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are wrong on this. Once again, I ask you to go through and explain them. You come back with some diatribe about calvinism. I give you the Bible and you want to shout "calvinism".
It is true that Calvinism espouses this doctrine. "Original sin" and the scriptures you quote Clint are for the most part Old Testament. That means they are for the Jewish people that lived then. We can though learn from them, but even that does not prove your belief. The New Testament verse you used in 1 Corinthians 15:22, is just stating the fact that it was through Adam that sin entered the world. God is pointing out the difference between Christ and Adam. Adam = Sin, and Christ = Redemption from that sin. Sin did enter the world through Adam, but that does not mean that we are all born with sin already in ourselves! Sin is defined in the Bible, and it is never defined as somthing we have no choice in! Think about it, James 1:13-15, says "Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death."
See man is only going to sin when He follows this diagram of sin. What about the first sin? Genesis 3:6-7 "So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate. Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked. And they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loincloths." She saw that it was good food. She was tempted by it's delightfulness. She desired it. Then she took it. Sin was born. Just the same as David, he saw the woman bathing, he wanted her he took her! Same as you and me. Sin occurs in the heart of one who can choose, not one that cannot choose. You say that babies are not going to hell, but your doctrine teaches otherwise! If God is true, and cannot live in the presense of sin, He will by no means allow ANY sin to come into His heaven! Even the sin of Adam in a lost child! You cannot separate the cause and effect of your doctrine. If it is sin, it goes to hell. If it is righteousness, it goes to heaven.
You are the one twisting the plan of God (as you believe it to be) if you say that the souls that are aborted and the little children that die before baptism or sprinkling or whatever are "saved" According to your belief THEY MUST GO TO HELL. At least be consistant in the faith you hold so dear. Check out this link it sites most of your scriptures: http://www.bible.ca/cal-T-calvinist-prooftexts.htm
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Clint, Chuck, and others.....
If children are totally deprived and sinful, Why are NO children baptized in the New Testament? The ONLY people that need to be baptized are those who know what sin is. and are able to repent of that sin, can a baby repent? Can an infant confess? Can an infant be called "evil" and "sin-filled" because she cries out for food? You won't find that in the Bible. The fact is there are some unavoidable consequences of this false teaching that even you who believe it are not willing to accept!!!! John Calvin, the father of Calvinism said: "there are babies a span long in hell." (meaning there are almost no newborn children in heaven.) Even he wouldn't commit to all the infants being lost, no wonder you won't. Again, be consistant with your faith. How about this one:
Jesus inherited the depraved nature and guilt of sin like any other man, otherwise
---Jesus had an advantage in overcoming sin that we do not.
---Jesus was not made like his brethren in all things" Heb 2:14-18
---Jesus was not tempted in all things just as we are. Heb 4:15
Man has no responsibility to hear and obey the gospel (irresistible grace) Calvinists teach that man being depraved, cannot comprehend the gospel message. The Holy Spirit must specifically touch an individual, thus allowing them to respond to the gospel. Thus man cannot be saved without the direct and miraculous operation of the Holy Spirit. If men go to hell, it is because God never extended his Holy Spirit to that individual, thus giving them the ability to accept and comprehend the gospel then: God is therefore responsible for all the unsaved going to hell. God created certain men who never had any chance or opportunity to be saved! This makes God a respecter of persons. Man is not responsible for his sin, since he has no freewill. There is little difference between "the devil made me do it" and "Adam made me do it" Ultimately, God is responsible for man's sin because that is the way God created us at conception. Like migrating birds that have no choice, we are acting out of nature and instinct. Then every newborn is as wicked as the Devil himself. Newborns that die are lost. God failed to provide instructions on how newborns can be saved. God will condemn to hell a newborn for someone else's sin and something it didn't do.
Check out these scriptures:
1 John 3:4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.
Matthew 18:3 and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 19:14but Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven."
Babies do not have sin from Adam passed to them, they are innocent. At the time that one is tempted to do what is wrong and they know it to be wrong, sin enters their hearts, and thus, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
Rebel Hog, if you agree, speak up!!!
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One more and I'll take a break! This one is a post from a buddie's web-site:
The mechanism for the transmission of inherited sin false:
Spiritual consequences of sin cannot be transmitted from father to son but only falls on the one who committed the act: Ezek 18:1-4; 18-20; Jer 32:29-30
1. Exodus 32:31*33 In this passage, Moses wanted to receive the punishment for someone else's sin. In verse 33, the one who sinned is removed from the book, not the one whose parents have sinned.
We will be judged only by our own actions: Mt 12:36-37; Rom 2:6; 2 Cor 5:10; 1 Pe 1:17
Isa 59:1-2, "Your sins have separated you from your God" not Adams
Sin is committed by individually breaking God's law: 1 Jn 3:4 (Infants have done nothing)
Where is one Bible verse that says we will be condemned for sin other than our own?
B. Unsaved and unregenerate men are capable of doing good and have freewill:
Calvinists teach that if a sinner helps an accident victim, he still sins because he does it for the wrong motive.
Gentiles do by nature the good things of the law: Rom 2:14-16
Cornelius was devout, feared God, righteous, Acts 10:1-4, 22 yet unsaved: 11:14
Man has a freewill and can choose to do good or evil: Josh 24:15 "Choose this day..."
C. God requires man to act and do something to be saved...infants can't act or do
"Unless you repent you will perish": Lk 13:3
"Save yourselves": Acts 2:40 KJV
"Repent and be baptized every one of you for forgiveness of sins": Acts 2:38
Why are we told to "work out our own salvation": Phil 2:12
The spoken and written gospel message is God's power for salvation: Rom 1:16; 1 cor 1:18
The words used to describe salvation refute inherited sin:
These words imply that we, individually, were once in God's grace at conception and birth
Justification - Romans 5:18
A court term; a legal word
Addresses the subject of our guilt before God
Reconciliation - Romans 5:6-11; Col 1:14,20,21
A word dealing with social intercourse; human relations; to make friendly again, payment of a price to recover from the power of another, a restoration to favor.
Addresses the subject of our being estranged from God
Redemption - Colossians 1:13-14
to buy back; A slavery term; human commerce; purchasing one's freedom; a ransom
Addresses the subject of our slavery to sin
"Regenerate"
to generate again, renewed, restored
The Bible describes infants are pure and holy:
Why would Jesus use infants as a model for all believers to imitate in character if they were "utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil"? Mt 18:1-3; 19:13-14
Paul also used infants as a model of purity for Christians to follow: 1 Cor 14:20
Paul states that he was once spiritually alive but then he sinned & died/was killed: Rom 7:9-11
God said that the king of Tyrus was "blameless in your ways from the day you were created, until unrighteousness was found in you." Ezek 28:15
"God made men upright but they sought devices" Eccl 7:29 (plural can't refer only to Adam)
Newborns do not know the difference between good and evil
God allowed the children to enter Canaan but not the parents: "your little ones who...have no knowledge of good and evil shall enter". Deut 1:34-39
Jacob & Esau, "the twins were not yet born, and had done nothing good or bad" Rom 9:11
Jesus "Before He knows enough to refuse evil and choose good" Isa 7:15-16
Jer 19:2-6 human sacrifices of children to Baal is called the "blood of the innocent"
If newborns do not know "good or evil" yet the Bible says , "Your sins have separated you from your God" (Isa 59:1-2) then newborns must be born united with God.
As in Adam, all die... 1 Cor 15:22
Text Newborn, innocent & alive Sinner, guilty & dead
Adam & Eve: Gen 1-3
Didn't know good from evil
Ate forbidden fruit
Jacob & Esau: Rom 9:11
Don't know good from evil
When they sin against God
Jesus: Isa 7:15-16
Didn't know good from evil
Jesus never sinned
Apostle Paul: Rom 7:9-11
"Once alive"
"sin killed me"
King of Tyre: Ezek 28:15
"Blameless from creation"
"until sin found in him"
All men: Eccl 7:29
God made men upright
They sought out devices
Like Adam, each man is born in the "Garden" and is cast out when he sins
The second Spiritual death implies a first spiritual death & initial spiritual life:
Second death is hell: It is a spiritual separation from God: Rev 20:6,14
First death is when we first sin and are separated from God till judgement
For us to die a first death we must have been spiritually alive at birth.
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Snook,Chuck, Clint, & anyone else:
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I do have a question for you Goose. Concerning Jesus and his birth, was he born just like all other babies? Did he inherit the same traits as others? Mary concieved of the Holy Ghost, (The Holy Ghost was the father of the Christ child), not Joseph. The blood comes through the farhers side, correct? Jesus could not trace his linage, (DNA) to Adam. He is the only one ever born that didn't inherit traits from father Adam.
His BIRTH was just like other babies, His conception was a miracle. Tell me how you come up with the idea that the "blood" comes from the Father's side"?? I don't understand that. Jesus could trace His linage back to Adam. In fact it is interesting that Matthew goes back only to David in his gospel account of Jesus linage, which is the linage of Joseph. But Luke goes all the way back to Adam, through Mary! Read Luke 3:23-38. Could those of you who believe in "Original Sin" please comment on this? Thank you.
Trae
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Clint,
In my opinion the most misunderstood and confusing Bible subject is sin. There is no way to express the horribleness of sin and the problem it creates for mankind. Only through the blood of Jesus can we find redemption for sin, and live in the hope of heaven. The idea that sin is passed to us through each other by virtue of mere physical relationship is a false doctrine that has plagued the truth for many years. As far back as the fifth century there was a huge controversy between Augustine and Pelagius. Pelaguis was a monk and lived a holy life as a such. Abstaining from many things, and striving to be pure. Augustine was a man with a seemingly "uncontrolable" lust for sexual sin. He was a Bishop, yet he always struggled with sin and esp. sexual sin. Augustine was one of the first that said that the sin in his life was to be atributed to Adam. That man was "totally depraved" he reached this conclusion by his own expirences. Augustine was a forerunner of John Calvin. In the end of their debate, Augustine won because Pelagius advocated infant-baptism and could not defend it's practice. Even though he believed that man was a free moral agent. He was inconsistant with his teachings. This came about in A.D. 418 at the General Council of African churches. They were in effect having the same debate we are having. Only I do not advocate the baptism of infants. I do believe that sin is a choice. We are made in the image of God, and we are born perfectly innocent of any sin. I'll get to the scriptures you site later, got to go now!
Trae
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Here is how you have taken those scriptures out of context clint. To answer your question, and without useing any commentary or other web sites!
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Genesis 6:5
And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Notice that it points out a specific: "man" it doesn't say babies, neither does it say anything about original sin. These folks are choosing to sin rather than to love God, or repent as Noah was preaching to them!
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Genesis 8:21
And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
Notice again that it is pointed out how that it is the man's heart, not his parents, or Adam's, but his own heart. God judge's us based on our own lives. Not the life of one who came before us. Also, if your viewpoint was true, wouldn't He have said the man's "heart is evil" not that it was his "imagination" it is the same as in James when He tells us that our own lust leads us to sin. Not the lust of our parents.
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1 Kings 8:46
If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near;
This one is a great scripture for me! Like Romans 3:23, All have sinned. We each choose to sin. It is my sin that I need redemption for not my parents.
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Psalm 14:2-3
The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. [3] They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Why would He say that they had "all gone aside" unless it was their choice to go aside? And "go aside" from what? Obviosly there was something that was right for them to leave and "go aside"! They were all perfect as innocent children, yet when they choose to sin, it was a choice to "go aside"!!! This is getting pretty evident.
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Psalm 51:5
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
This is your best scripture. It seems to say exactly what you want it to. But God's word is perfect, and no one verse can contradict another. The verses before this one all do in fact contradict the teaching that you espouse. Read them: Psalm 51:1-5 "Have mercy on me, O God, according to your steadfast love; according to your abundant mercy blot out my transgressions. Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin! For I know my transgressions, and my sin is ever before me. Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight, so that you may be justified in your words and blameless in your judgment. Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." These verses cannot contradict, so is it his sin he needs redemption of or his mother's, or his father's and by the way, the Bible says that his father "Jesse" was righteous. So if this is your best, and it is, it does not stand to say what you think it says! Remember just above you quoted how that earlier David had also said: Psalm 14:3 "They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one." They "turned aside" they choose. They were not born that way!
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Jeremiah 17:5, 9
Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Again the very verse you quote says: "whose heart departs from the Lord" If you depart from Him, you were at one time with Him! Proving God's point, we are born innocent.
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Job 11:12
For vain man would be wise, though man be born like a wild ass's colt.
I think you just posted this so you could cuss. Just like in those other posts of your's that the MODs had to delete! This does not say we are born in sin.
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Job 15:14
What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?
Exactly! We sin, as "men" we need to be cleansed, at the time Job had never heard of the promise of God's Son for our redemption! He's saying what anyone would expect him to say!
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Psalm 58:2-5
Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth. [3] The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. [4] Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear; [5] Which will not hearken to the voice of charmers, charming never so wisely.
Wow! This again proves the point of "free-will" notice it says "as soon as they are born" not before, not because of the parents or Adam but themselves! Context, Clint!
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Psalm 143:2
And enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified.
Agree. Everyone has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. But it is a choice!
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Proverbs 20:9
Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?
Nobody at that time!!! Not until the sacrifice of Jesus!!!!! Even then we cannot say that we made ourselves clean, it is God that saves, not you or me!
I'll have to start again on your other scriptures later, this is all I have time for now!
Response?????????
Just for the record, the word "man" in scripture doesn't always refer to a male of the human race. The use of the word man is said to mean a difference between two people because of age. If that is true, where do women fit into this equation? Let's rightly devide the word of truth reqardless of which side of the debate we are on.
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Just for the record, the word "man" in scripture doesn't always refer to a male of the human race. The use of the word man is said to mean a difference between two people because of age. If that is true, where do women fit into this equation? Let's rightly devide the word of truth reqardless of which side of the debate we are on.
Cute Snooker DUH!!!!!!!!!! Answer the scriptures, here's some more
Romans 4:15 "For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression." What laws does that little baby transgress in the womb?
Acts 17:29 "Being then God"s offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man." If we're "God's offspring" wouldn't that make God the source of all UNRIGHTEOUSNESS!!!!! Answer these questions, I'd love to see any of you answer these, and make any sense at all! Clint, I'm callin you out too!! Chuck, don't get upset, I'm lookin for answers.
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Snook-Dawg,
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Goose; Based of the record in Matthew, you are saying that Joseph was the father of Jesus Christ? It traces through Joseph. Doesn't the bible teach that The Holy Ghost overshadowed Mary? Did Jesus have two fathers? If not, who is the real Father?
Jesus is the Son of God. Obviously, our heavenly Father, the God of the Bible saw fit to recognize the importance of listing the linage of Joseph back to David the King in the book of Matthew. He also listed the linage of Mary, which also went to David and even to Adam. So we don't need Joseph's family history, we need only Mary, and there's NO DOUBT she is "physically" a part of the Messiah! If sin is passed through mere physical relationship, then Jesus was not perfect, and God's whole plan of redemption is faulty and will not work! The implication and logical end of your belief will in and of itself reject the false doctrine that is being taught by yourselves. Jesus was and is perfect! No sin. Never. Not Adam's, not Mary's, and esp. not His own! Re-consider this post I made earlier as it illustrates your belief:
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Jesus inherited the depraved nature and guilt of sin like any other man, otherwise
---Jesus had an advantage in overcoming sin that we do not.
---Jesus was not made like his brethren in all things" Heb 2:14-18
---Jesus was not tempted in all things just as we are. Heb 4:15
Wow! I'm not going to accept that! Jesus is Lord and God of my life! He is perfect and no sin EVER had it's way in His amazing and wonderful life!
Moose started to answer your verses Clint, I'll see how he does, so far I agree with all that he has posted!
What about it Clint? Where you at? Please dont ever act like little miss holier thou again. And you know you did.
Hey moose,
That is too much to read.How about making it shorter and ask one question at a time.Maybe even two. Thanks brother. I like your zealous spirit Moose. You need to communicate though a little more gentler. I am very easy to get along with and will try to understand your point as much as possible.Actually I thought you had some pretty good verses in there that I need to review for myself. I have to admit I was taught a lot of verses out of context. But none of these things are a life and death situation. If I were you I'd be still on cloud 38 for the prosperous hunting that you had this year. I hope to get in 5 years what you have done in one. I love you Moose.
Chuck
What about it Clint? Where you at? Please dont ever act like little miss holier thou again. And you know you did.
I'm right here Moose. Miss holier than thou?
What is your problem? You certainly are a frustrated individual, aren't you?
God's peace is available to you. Stop seeing yourself as your own savior. You can't merit your own salvation or do anything about keeping it. Cease from working for some unattainable merit before God and cast yourself totally upon His grace. You will have rest and your anger will subside.
God's peace is available to you. Stop seeing yourself as your own savior. You can't merit your own salvation or do anything about keeping it. Cease from working for some unattainable merit before God and cast yourself totally upon His grace. You will have rest and your anger will subside.
LOL no anger clint the point is you wanted answers you got them you cant do anything but try and act like I am a bad person because We proved your man made belief wrong get off your high horse and read the bible you got a lot to learn but maybe if you would get out the Bible and read it and not your manuel or discipline or creed or whatever you got telling you those lies you will understand the truth.
Look I put some scriptures up for you after yours please look at them and answer to them. I'll be nice if you be nice. give an answer.
I'll be your candle on the water! My love for you will always burn. I know your lost and drifting but the clouds are lifting. Look to me you have somewhere to turn! Dont let the stormy darkness pull you down I'll spread a ray of hope around you turning in the air, lighted by a prayer. I'll be your candle man.
Out of all those loving words, you only saw that part? I wasn't saying anything like that, just expressing my feelings, I'm a "good ole boy, it takes alot to get to me.
Born with sin?
This one is a post from a buddie's web-site: 
