The law according to Jews

[Tazman]

http://www.jewfaq.org/halakhah.htm Interesting link, we as Christians through our discussions have demonstrated a huge lack of knowledge on this subject, here a few quotes frrom it.

Unless the jews are not experts on thier own laws this pretty much states the The Torah Law is only contained in the first 5 books of the Bible, It also points out that there are only 613 Laws contained in those 5 books.

At the heart of halakhah is the unchangeable 613 mitzvot that G-d gave to the Jewish people in the Torah (the first five books of the Bible). The word "mitzvah" means "commandment." In its strictest sense, it refers only to commandments instituted in the Torah; however, the word is commonly used in a more generic sense to include all of the laws, practices and customs of halakhah, and is often used in an even more loose way to refer to any good deed.

[Tazman]

http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm Now here in my opinion is the final word on what the law is, as I already said there are 613, no more, no less. So even if Christ fulfilled every bit of the law, there is still an awful lot of stuff in the Old Testament that still applies. Unless it is not really scripture to be followed.

[Tazman]

I have to say I am shocked that there has not been one comment on this thread after 4 pages worth a short time ago when many of us, myself included were speaking in ignorance about "The Law".

BTW the Jews have not changed "The Law", this is the same "Law" Christ grew up under.

[gman1969]

Taz, great point. I agree with everything you've posted here. Actually on about the second page of the "Technicalities" thread (somewhere around there, I'm not exactly sure) I posted this exactly, including a link to the 613 laws given through Moses which we are no longer obligated to keep under the New Covenant in order to establish and maintain a right standing before God. (Sacrifices, offerings, etc...)

There is so much more to the OT than Mosaic Law though. Though it's a big part of it, nonetheless its only a part of the OT. It's my belief that a firm understanding of the Old Testament is essential to shed the much needed light on interpreting New Testament passages of Scripture. Sometimes we interpret these passages with a 20th century mindset when we need to seek its understanding within its 1st century context, using the OT to understand what is being said. This is using Scripture to interpret Scripture, including OT Scripture.

Someone once said that "The Old Testament is the New Testament concealed; and the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed".

[Chuck7]

Taz,
Alot of us have alot of knowledge of the Old Testament. The other post was a no win situation. Some already had their answers in stone. So even Christ could not persuade them any differently. I saw some very good answers but to no advail. Snooky and Jim gave some very good concrete answers.I actually learned alot from reading them and saved some to my favorites.

Proverbs 26:16
The sluggard is wiser in his own conceit than seven men that can render a reason.

Chuck

[Leafrivermac]

Proverbs 26:16
The sluggard is wiser in his own conceit than seven men that can render a reason

I don't think that I would apply that verse to them , just because they don't have an understanding of the law. As I imagine there is quite a bit that we don't know about the OT. The problem is that all of us have to struggle thru preconcieved ideas and doctrinal teachings. Finding the truth in Gods word can very much be limited by ourselves.

[Chuck7]

Let's try another version.Living Bible Proverbs 26:16 yet in his own opinion he is smarter than 7 wise men.

Chuck

I guess the question is...Who are trusted to be wise? Of course we know the Lord Jesus was wise and the religious folks of His day thought He was of the devil.

[Snooky]

Very good posts-every one of them. You guys have me at a disavantage here when it comes to Hebrew, Greek, 1st century history and customs. I just have to stay with what I know a little about and that is what the scripture says. There is mention on other posts about asking a jew, or a Greek person for guideance. All that will likely get is their slanted view of the question. Their language, just as ours has different meaning for the same word or phrase, plus it has changed in meaning and usage over time.There is much to learn about the law and the more we learn about it, the greater will be our knowledge of the New Testament. I have tried to push that idea in some of my posts but have been met with opposition every time "law" is spoken. Many prophesies in the Old Testament would clear up some of our preconcieved ideas if we but understood when and what they were telling us. Two words or terms that I have a problem with are "fulfilled" and "destroyed". My limited knowledge just can't bring these two together in harmony. May be you fellows can comment on the two, their meanings, and how they are to be used in application to the law.

[Chuck7]

Two words or terms that I have a problem with are "fulfilled" and "destroyed". My limited knowledge just can't bring these two together in harmony. May be you fellows can comment on the two, their meanings, and how they are to be used in application to the law.

I'd like to give it a shot.

2:14
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
2:16
And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

The Written Law { as Taz said, the Pentateuch ,the first 5 books of the Bible was abolished and satisfied/fulfilled in Christ to bring Jew and Gentile together by means of the cross.

2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
2:14
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
2:15
And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
2:16
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
2:17
Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

HOWEVER: WE CAN LEARN FROM THEM THINGS THAT WE CAN USE TODAY

10:5
But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
10:6
Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
10:7
Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
10:8
Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
10:9
Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
10:10
Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
10:11
Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come

CHuck

[Snooky]

Chuch; Thanks brother. I can agree with all that you just posted as "fulfillment", but the term "abolished" to me contridicts the meaning of "fulfilled". How can he fulfill if he has abolished already? Or how could he abolish something that had been fullfilled? Am I making any sense?