Did I miss something or has the one of the most important events in election history just occurred and nothing has been post on this forum until now?
Anyways, I saw Sunset had a post going on the off season area and thought this was an appropriate place to post the subject also.
I for one am very impressed with how well the voting went. Also how brave and committed these people are to take back their lives.
Even if we had our national elections was in the best weather how many Americans would walk to the polls with nobody threatening their lives? Not 60 %, we get that on our best days of peace.
Whether one agrees with the war or not I believe they have to be encouraged by the actions of the Iraqi people.
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Now you have to picture a combination of PeeWEE Herman and Wally Cox but with less muscle tone, trying to be intimidating None of this is funny! Message edited by Cougar Mag -- 1/7/2005 1:16:42 AM >/b]
I for one am very impressed with how well the voting went. Also how brave and committed these people are to take back their lives.
Yes and no. I find it odd that every other country in my lifetime was capable of mounting an insurgency that toppled or at least destabilized their own rotten goobermint. I didn't even see a half hearted concerted effort on the part of Iraqi's to cap a few of Sodomy Hussein's own.
Hell, even the S. Vietnamese (as logs well knows, having been over in that hell hole) put up a damn good fight.
Logs you are right, I was surprised also not to see a thread on this. I loved watching the Iraqis vote, basically they were saying "In your face!" to the insurgents!!!! It took some guts to go vote there considering you may get blown up or shot doing it! It just goes to show the anti-war folks that the Iraqi people feel we did the right thing getting Sadaam out of there.
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The Tazman aka Martin Price
Proud father of a Devil Dog
I think the election is very significant. There are not many measures we get of progress in Iraq. Just about our only source of information is the news media, and they are a severly biased filter. This election will provide some rock-solid bonafide data that will be difficult to ignore. For example, I have heard a voter turnout of 60% and in some select areas 90%. Such a voter turnout is NOT commensurate with the notion some have put out -- the european community -- that the folks in the middle east are not into democracy and self-governance, that just isn't their bag baby, you misunderstand their culture and project onto their culture your own culture. This is just one conclusion from this data. Others are possible.
If you were to lay out a road map of the best possible resolution of the Iraq story from the day before we invaded to the end of time it would involve (1) turning the government over into Iraqi hands (we did this last summer), (2) free elections by Iraqi citizens (happened two days ago), (3) construction of an Iraqi constitution with guaranteed rights for minorities (yet to happen), (4) government operates according to its constitution, is a country governed by law, manages its oil riches for the benefits of all its people, and maintains adequate internal security (yet to happen). My count of four items does not mean there can't be other milestones included. While one might want things to have happened more quickly, progress is being made, and in my opinion it is no quagmire.
It seems to me that Iraq may turn out well. We went in to reduce the threat of terrorism to the United States. If we don't leave Iraq with a whole bunch of pissed off people, I think we will have accomplished this. I think the election was a major success and provides a basis for optimism.
Just for fun, let's fantasize just a little bit. What will happen if three years from now, in February 2008, the Iraq policy has been fully vindicated? Bush was supremely blasted by the democrats about Iraq. If the Iraq policy succeeds, shouldn't the democrats take the heat for not helping but hindering this effort? I would surely like to see their feet held to the fire in this event. I know people harangue about the absence of weapons of mass destruction, but this is not determinative to me. Gosh darn! We didn't find any weapons of mass destruction! We got rid of an extremely dangerous man, a man ever ready to cooperate with an enemy of the United States. We established a democracy in the Middle East which has (fantasy here, but possible) now driven the autocratic regimes of Saudi Arabia and Syria to undertake democrat reforms and enfranchise their peoples, thus lowering the frustration and anger which is easily channeled into terrorism. Iran, cowed by the success in Iraq and mindful of Afghanistan on one side and Iraq on the other side, has unilaterally taken down its nuclear program. But gosh darn it, George Bush's policy in Iraq failed because there were not weapons of mass destruction and we should rather have followed the Clinton policy of not doing anything until we were 99.999% sure of our data!!! That isn't the way I see it. In my opinion, if the Iraq policy works and succeeds, the democrats should be dramatically discredited and sorely pummelled in elections for years to come.
That is just my opinion. I do not know everything, and my judgment is imperfect.
Personally, I'm waiting to hear the outcome. I think that is when the interesting discussion will come up. What do we have, another week or so to wait for the results?
shouldn't the democrats take the heat for not helping but hindering this effort
I was listening to Rush yesterday (yes I listen to him), and he was really laying into the Democrats for siding with the terrorists against Bush. He went on to say that one in on of the recent bombings, terrorists used a Downs Syndrome child as a suicide bomber, and that this is who the Democrats side with...
I was really suprised to see such a high turnout. Not becuase of the terroristic threats but because with a country that has never known freedom, many Iraqis don't know what to do with it. I wasn't sure if they would take this great opportunity. Never-the-less I am very pleased with the voter turnout!!!
Maybe the US could learn a thing or two from this. The majority of American voters see voting as a joke. I wonder how many would vote if it wasn't an option for most of their lives?
Folks like Rush and his cohorts are incapable of true debate and degenerate into labeling anyone who does not lock step with Bush as a terrorist sypathizer and traitor to the USA.
There is no "true debate" anywhere in the media. Everyone is too busy scoring points on one another, which leaves precious room for rationality.
To Rush's credit, and I am not an apologist for Rush so don't ask me to defend him, his point seemed to be that some democrats, and Senator Ted Kennedy in particular, could arguably be said to give aid and comfort to our enemies. Who are are enemies? The insurgents in Iraq who are blowing things up and trying to derail progress to a free Iraq are our enemies. What aid did Ted Kennedy provide to these enemies? Is setting a time table for when 12,000 troops should be withdrawn -- immediately after the elections, hence yesterday -- and when the rest of troops should be withdrawn giving aid and comfort to this enemy? Is saying that the policy in Iraq is a calamitous failure giving comfort to this enemy? Is saying that we are wrong to be in Iraq giving comfort to this enemy? I would say that it is, particularly two days before the election in Iraq. Now, we have a first amendment right in this country, but it is not an unlimited right. There are proper times and forums and forms of dissenting and trying to initiate change. In my opinion the actions of Ted Kennedy are pushing right out there, out to the point where it is not unreasonable for reasonable, thoughtful people to ask themselves "Hmmm? Just where would the line be between first amendment speech and speech which gives aid and comfort to our enemies? Is there no speech which crosses this line? Clearly, hollering "FIRE! FIRE!" in a crowded theater is not protected speech"
Anyway, that is where Rush was coming from on this.
What is the point? The Democrats are so bent on scoring points and trying to beat Bush down that they seem more than ready to damage our efforts in Iraq. You are free to debate this point among yourselves, but I happen to feel that this is precisely what is happening.
I also would love to see the Democrats take the heat if the Iraq policy works out for the best. It is unarguable that the Democrats have decried and contended against every aspect of the Iraq actions. If you want to limit this to specific Democrats, that is fine, but it would certainly embrace Ted Kennedy, John Kerry, Pelosi, et al. The Democrats have said "This is completely wrong? What imbeciles! The sky is falling!" Well, reality could be as they descibe . . . or it could be otherwise. If it is otherwise, I think their a$$ is hanging out and ought to be cut off with extreme prejudice. They have left themselves very little ground for shifting and pretending that they supported this effort, in my opinion.
The Election folks???
