What do you believe your employer owes you and what do you believe you owe them in return?
The thread on unions and some of the replies got me thinking about this issue.
I believe that some people see employers and empolyement as they see the government, owing them something possibly beyond that which they may be entiled.
Why does an employer owe you anymore than a fair wage for a fair days work in a safe and healthy work enviorment?
If I pay you a fair wage what difference does it make what my profit margin is since I take the risk, you don't? You can quit and move on if you don't like it.
Why do I owe you a pension or health insurance if I pay you a fair wage? You can select to invest or purchase those things that you want on your own. If you want to co op as an employee group to get a group rate, fine but why should it be at my expense? That expense includes the cost of administering those benefits and I doubt most of the people ever think about that burden on their employer.
I see more and more people complaining about not having a pension plan or employer paid health insurance. These things are Benefits, not entitlements. If you want them, ask for more pay and purchase them on your own or take less pay and recieve them. Unfortunately, many want it both ways.
( This is just a point not the issue of the thread.That is part of the reason employers find it cheaper to farm work out and pay for shipping rather than try to satisfy all the worker demands.)
__________________
Now you have to picture a combination of PeeWEE Herman and Wally Cox but with less muscle tone, trying to be intimidating None of this is funny! Message edited by Cougar Mag -- 1/7/2005 1:16:42 AM >/b]
Understand that Union benefits are actually part of the pay. They dont show up on the check but they work as part of the pay. When a contract comes up we have a decision to make if we want more on the check or more in benefits. Our benefits are paid to the Union based on hours worked. Atleast thats how it works in my Union and Local.
Also the administration of benefits is not paid by the employer. Joint commitees from the local and the employers oversee these funds.
Also the administration of benefits is not paid by the employer. Joint commitees from the local and the employers oversee these funds.
I for a time had to calculate benefit cost and not all unions encorporate them into the wage benefit cost. Unions that do this take a larger piece of the wage as union dues. And if there has ever been a place for the good old boy system, it is in the union office and staff. If they are doing any paper work for anybody it is at great expense.( I paid union dues for 34 years and I had to work harder keeping track of what the union was doing with the dues than I have to with my tax money. All unions are not the same and that is not the point of the thread.)
As far as the first part of your statement goes, it would be nice if that were true but it is not. Employees want the pay raise and the benefits and it's national news when they consume the benefit increasing cost with pay cuts. Just go back and read the post on the union and see what some of these people want.
That is why I did not make this a Union thread, rather what do you expect for a fairs days work other than a fair wage. If you include benefits into a wage package you can estimate the cost by doubling the hourly wage in most parts of the country. In the Milwaukee are it is more like multipling it by 110% because of the local high cost of health insurance. That means if an electrician in Milwaukee is getting about $30 and hour it is costing the employer $63 and hour to have that man there including all benefits. This is based on the city of milwaukee benefit cost estimate which was used to calulate the buget when I still worked.
When was the last time you heard anyone in a union say, OK you pick up the increase in the health insurance and we'll for go a raise???
More and more often arbitrators are passing more of the benefit cost onto the employees who are demanding more money and more coverage at the employers expense.
__________________
Now you have to picture a combination of PeeWEE Herman and Wally Cox but with less muscle tone, trying to be intimidating None of this is funny! Message edited by Cougar Mag -- 1/7/2005 1:16:42 AM >/b]
Hmm several locals here have forgone raises for keeping benifits to offset the rising cost. In my trade in Georgia and Alabama the benefits run about 1/4 of total package.
Under your example the cost of benefits is 110% of hourly wages yet you expect workers to provide this for themselves?
What I don't understand is if managment wants to squeeze evey last dollar out of an opperation by not offering benefits or moving overseas it is good buisness practices and should be looked up upon. However if some working stiff wants to make enough to send his kids to colledge, provide his family with health insurance, or be able to retire with more than what social security provides; he is greedy and should be despised.
Reddoak, what do you feel you are entitled to or why do you feel you are entitled to more than a fair wage? Your employer is the one taking all the risk and providing you with a job.
If what they are offering you isn't fair, go somewhere else.
Really? 40% is awful low. Are you factoring in all benefits? Sick time, vacation days, holidays off, paid lunch, any retirement benefits, unemployment insurance, health insurance, off street parking, lockers and or lunch rooms if they apply? Think long and hard about what an employer provides besides a job for you.
__________________
Now you have to picture a combination of PeeWEE Herman and Wally Cox but with less muscle tone, trying to be intimidating None of this is funny! Message edited by Cougar Mag -- 1/7/2005 1:16:42 AM >/b]
Sam Walton, the founder of Walmart was worth billions...This man had so much money(And he earned it with a great service), that when he died, 5 of his children who had inherited his money all made the top ten of the richest people in the united states...5 slots! from one inheritance!...THATS a lot of money...and still you can only offer me minimum wage to work in your store?
I deserve a wage commensurate with my expierience...I deserve a wage that will ALLOW ME and my family to COMFORTABLY live in our current economy. Anything after that, I suppose that it can be argued. But I will say that a content and happy worker is a more productive worker. With that being said, i suppose If I was an employer, I might be willing to take a couple of million out of all of my BILLIONs to provide some benifits.
Last but not least, At this particular moment, I deserve a break today at McDonalds, because i am very hungry...Cya
Logs great posts as usual
__________________
Rico, The fastest Bow in Texas.
I dont think I am "entitled" to anything. I am after all I can get for me and my family. I work to live and support my family. Not because I give a crap about some employer.
This is current from my contract.
Total package: $34.18
Base Rate $24.76
That is 27.5599765 or close enough to call 1/4. No-vaction days. No sickdays. Holidays are double time if worked otherwise all 5 of them are un-paid. We do get a reimbersment if we have to pay to park and you can bet that is figured into the bid. They do have to provide basic personal saftey equipment (hardhats saftey glasses that stuff). Also they do have to provide raingear if we work in the rain. 2 10 minute breaks on the clock, lunch is off. BTW we have one of the best contracts in the southeast in construction.
Again why should whitecollar supervisor and managment types be "entitled" to bonuses, insurance and all the goodies while the people that MAKE the companies money for the company are not.
Like I said in the other thread I have worked both sides of the fence and I know dang good and well which side I want to be on.
Why do I owe you a pension or health insurance if I pay you a fair wage?
As others said above, wages and benifits are included in a package. A person can move from job to job if they can find one. Those employers who want to keep good productive employees treat their employees fairly. What is fair is dependant upon the competitions' package in many cases within that industry.
First and foremost the employer does NOT owe you employment. But the DO while in their employment owe you the respect of acting in a LEGAL manner.
They should be castrated when they commit felonies, lie to customers or taxpayers.
When you are in a position of authority you should be held to a much higher standard, not a lesser one. Industry is graft, corruption and favoritism. Look at politics, they are bedfellows.
Look what these crap bags in industry are doing now. We have AOL on their 2nd CEO in a year due to graft and corruption. -- must be nice to be fired and given a 7 million dollar severance when the average slob that designs and builds your crap get unemployment at best.
Unless you're talking about a mom and pop organization, STOCKHOLDERS own the company, not the ceo, cfo, head of hr or any other overpaid crap bag in the place.
but stockholders are constantly igonored via their proxy. even the boards of directors are ignored.
Entilements????
