I have a friend here that doesn't post in the political forum, but he really has some heart burn with Bush/Cheney, his cause of heartburn I was unaware of because I am not a civil servant, but I am a veteran. This really burns me up, it takes me back to the days when Reagan raped the veterans, retirees and thier spouses benefits/rights. Here is the email he wrote me, please don't ask who wrote me this, but it just backs up what I have said so many times that when it comes to presidential elections, pick the lesser of the 2 evils, and even with this appalling action by the Bush administration, Bush is still the lesser of two evils which tells you just how whacked Kerry is!
Quote:
I am a civil servant.....The rumsfielt plan takes away all of our collective
bargaining rights to include overtime pay. Example......You and I work in
the same area....I'm a vet and say your not....The boss says you and I have
to work late...you get OT pay and I get straight pay because I'm a vet and
he designates vets as professionals. Crap.....They also are taking away all
vets rights in ragards to RIF reduction in force. Currently we have a
system that non vets are lower on the totem pole and are considered "B"
employees. They cannot bump or retreat over a "A" employees (Vets). These 2
examples are just a few of the garbage he is pulling on civil servants. I
know this NSPS plan (rumsfieldt plan) inside and out. I have went to
Norfolk, Huntsville and just got back from Phenoix trying to explain this
crap to other civil servants. He is regressing us to the 1940's where we had
virtually no rights. Now you must understand my feelings. He IS NOT a
friend of the vets in our country. But....many in the forums only think to
the end of their gun barrel (NRA) as I used to years ago. I have learned
that I have to weigh all these issues before I decide what person to vote
for.
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The Tazman aka Martin Price
Proud father of a Devil Dog
I suppose I'd like to comment on this for just a second. Please bear in mind that I am a vet.
I am a contractor working for civil servants. I have learned much about the civil servant job situation and how things work. there are a couple of things going on. I would like to preface that I believe the facts that your friend laid down. I understood things a bit different but accept what he says as facts.
However, why should people that do a type of work that is salaried everywhere else, earn overtime? they shouldn't. is is unfair that some do and vet's don't? yes. No one should earn it though. don't be pissed at rumsfeld. be PO'd that gov't workers abuse the system buy racking up way too much OT. do all of them? no. In fact, most that I know work plenty of OT and don't whine about it. GS workers also receive (at least where I live) the option for AWS, alternate week schedule. every other friday off by putting in the hours during hte rest of the week. as far as I know that program is allowed to be used by both vet's and non-vet's.
is your friend saying that with the RIF stuff that soon he could be downsized just as easily as a non-vet? so what? just because he was in the military doesn't mean that his gov't job is more important than another guys. additionally, the other guy probably doesn't have a pension coming in. the military fella may....
I have the utmost respect for teh military. I lived the life. Many, Many of my friends still do. but just because you or I or your friend was a vet, I don't think that should make them get any "special" treatment once hired on a job. maybe this came off a bit strong, hopefully noone takes offense.
Iam a combat Vet and respect all Veterans regardless of where and when they served. Further, I agree with this 100%....
Quote:
I have the utmost respect for teh military. I lived the life. Many, Many of my friends still do. but just because you or I or your friend was a vet, I don't think that should make them get any "special" treatment once hired on a job.
I never used my Veteran points to get a job or get promoted. That was a personal choice I made with good reason, I make it on my own in everything I do. Others need help and some deserve it. But there must be a limit and end to everything or it becomes unfair.
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Now you have to picture a combination of PeeWEE Herman and Wally Cox but with less muscle tone, trying to be intimidating None of this is funny! Message edited by Cougar Mag -- 1/7/2005 1:16:42 AM >/b]
My thoughts.... I agree with what Taz mentioned. Bush is by far the best that we have.
I too am a veteran (retired Coast Guard), and have worked with Gov't civil service workers (GS-6, GS-9, etc...). They worked hand in hand with the Coast Guard on a daily basis (well, some of them did, anyways). I did have issues with them and how the whole organization worked, when back when I was on Governors Island (NYC), and worked for the Coast Guard personnel and payroll dept (it was my MOS - I was a yeoman). The whole office was 1/2 civil service, 1/2 "coasties". I'm sorry and I really hope this doesn't come out wrong, or that I get banned, but, guess who did 90% of all the work..... The coasties! Who didn't pull their weight, but never got in trouble... The GS-5's, GS-6's, etc...!!! When ***t hit the fan - who got hollered at.... The coasties!! I can vividly recall an incident where a black female GS-5 civil service worker didn't get something done on time - but yet I GOT YELLED AT FOR IT!! [:@][:'(] I'm sorry, Taz, but I still have a ill feeling towards the Gov't civil service workers. I mean, you are busting your butt getting stuff done, and they are sitting there filing their fingernails and chatting on the phone! [:@] I have not used my retired veteran status to any advantage. Heck, when I retired, I darn near had to start over from the beginning!
Well I guess some of us will disagree on this one, I am a vet, my father was a veteran of WWII & Korea, my son is active duty who is a veteran of Operation Iraqi Freedam and is no in Afghanistan.
In my opinion all veterans should be given a preference over non-veterans.
While the non-veteran was already in the work force gaining experience in his field and making more money than the veterans who are laying thier life on the line while the non-veteran stays in his nice safe home bringing in the good money, buying his home, the veteran may be sleeping in a mud pit getting shot at and possibly injured/maimed or killed.
A veteran sacrifices a portion of thier lives and their career opportunites in defense of non-veterans!
A veteran enters the civilian career world with anywhere from 2 years up to over 20 years of defending the non-vets rear end and is immediatly behind the 8 ball!
A veteran has years less of experience in the civilian work force than non-vets, many of them did not make enough money to be able to buy a home which a non-vet has been paying for years, yet they are the same age as the non-vets they are competeing with.
I feel we owe veterans for EVERY THING we have, our freedom being the main one. They have made the sacrifice that the non-vet has not!
I find it insulting to the people who have served to defend this country to not have any reward or appreciation given to them over a non-vet!
Maybe I am weird thinking that the group of people who gave up a portion of their life in defense of our country should be rewarded for it in any way.
Maybe we should tell that guy (My father, WWII & Korean Vet) that "hey so what if you gave up 21 1/2 years of your life in the military, helped crush Hiltler and kept half of Korea out of communist control, we do not owe you crap!"
Would any one here say that to a man who had done that?
Look, a vet when he enters the civilian world is way behind non-vets their same age, if you do not feel they deserve any reward for their sacrifices why don't we just slap them in the face too? That way we can really show them how much we appreciate thier sacrifice for our freedom!
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The Tazman aka Martin Price
Proud father of a Devil Dog
while I agree with you that we owe much to our Veterans, allowing preferences in maintaining a job is the same thing as affirmative action or quotas in my opinion.
One thing that I may agree with you on Taz, and not the others, is that when applying for a gov. job, a veteran should be looked at a bit more closely than others....simply for the reason that a lifelong infantryman learns very few "office" skills, for lack of a better way to say it.
however, I think I take issue when you say someone has given up 21.5 years of their life. each veteran that spent 21.5 years chose that. the person "deserves" nothing but appreciation, military px/commisary/medical priveleges, and a pension. because a person chose (what I believe to be one of the most admirable) a certain profession doesn't mean that they are entitled to more than another. then we get into teh gov't giving things away which is anti everything I believe and I think anti what this country stands for.
I also don't agree that a vet is behind the 8 ball when entering the private sector (non-military sector is maybe a better way). From my experience of getting out of the military 3 years ago, employers are willing to bend over backwards to hire a man (or woman) with military experience. maybe I have been lucky in that the employers I have worked for have all be very military oriented, with one owner having air force active duty experience. but, I was also laid off by one. Am I upset. yes for being laid off, but not for him "snubbing a vet." he had to do what he had to do in order to make his business survive. I also made a phone call and had another job lined up as soon as I was ready.
so, I supppose I disagree with a guy entering the workforce from the military as being behind the 8ball. we learn discipline, leadership, maintaining our composure under stress, showing up to work on time, giving 110%, etc....
Butch, I think your experience at Gov's island is slightly a different experiecne than what Taz's friend is referring to. Virtually all of the civil servants I knew on post were horrible. did little to no work and thought the military men adn woman were more of a nuisance than the reason they were working. however, where I work now, the majority of the civil servants are GS11-15s, and do heavy scientific work. I would say 60% are good, hard working people. what I remember in the army is that if you needed something done, get it done before lunch cause so few actually did anything after lunch...... Taz, what type of civil servants are you referring to. I live in Huntsville which was mentioned in your friends email. I would guess you are not referring to the civil workers that Buth was exposed to and I was exposed to while in the Army.
beej I am a vet also and when I entered the civilian work force, yes my military experience helped me in getting a job, but I was working FOR people my age who had started working for the company when I joined the service, I also had people I worked with that were 4-8 younger then me that were hired in at the same level I was. To say I was not behind the curve due to me doing my duty would be false.
I am not saying that vets should be able to be promoted ahead of others, but when it comes to the civil service I think if they are applying for a job and they are equally qualified for the position as a non-vet they should get the nod.
If you notice in the letter my friend sent the reason he does not get overtime is because he is a vet which makes him a proffesional, yet the non-vet doing the same job gets OT because he is not a proffesional because he is not a vet. Be honest, does that make sense?
I hate to post and run on this, but it is Friday, it is beautiful outside and I get off in 10 minutes, have a great weekend everyone, I am out of here, we will continue Monday!
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The Tazman aka Martin Price
Proud father of a Devil Dog
ORIGINAL: beej99
I also don't agree that a vet is behind the 8 ball when entering the private sector (non-military sector is maybe a better way). From my experience of getting out of the military 3 years ago, employers are willing to bend over backwards to hire a man (or woman) with military experience.
beej
WHAT???
Beej, I beg to differ.... I retired in 1996 (I was one of the guys that took that new "early out" plan - you know where Congress approved a new early 15 year retirement for the armed services). In the Coast Guard, I was a Yeoman First Class (E-6). A Yeoman is whatever the MOS is for the guy who handles military records, paperwork, and payroll. That's what I was for 17 years. I got more into computers and databases and they came of age, and long story short, I became a computer programmer and database administrator.
College degree?!? Pffffft!!!! What college degree! I don't have a lick of college and consider myself the luckiest guy on the planet for having the job that I have. The summer/fall of 1996 was a serious reality check for me. Countless doors were slammed in my face and job interviews blown, just because I didn't have "that magical piece of paper framed on a wall". They knew I could do the work, and I knew I could do the work. But in reality, they always go with the guy with the "framed piece of paper" and no experience, versus a veteran with 17 years of computer experience!! It used to torque me off!!! [:@] But I am lucky that I found my present company and have a great time and enjoy what I do. Whew!!
no worries.....we will chat more about this...
I agree ( I thought I had it in my first post) that it was unfair that vet's don't get overtime when the others do. However, I don't think either should get overtime unless it is a job that is paid hourly. then both should get paid OT. but, that is just my opinion and you know what those are like..........
Also Taz, I know you are a bit older than I, (I'm 27). (I'd have to have started really early to have a marine son by now!!!!). the spirit of the times was quite likely very different when you were getting out of the military. I don't know when that was, but would like to know....I know that life was especially difficult for the veteran during the Vietnam era adn is only turning around nowadays with benefits specifically for Vietnam vets from the VA.
again Taz, I hope there aren't any bad feelings as I know this is quite a hot topic for many. hopefully we can continue to discuss this come Monday!!!! I too am off to try and hook a few large mouth!
Something for veterans to digest....
