I am starting this thread because there seemed to be quite a firestorm around the topic of whether or not we chosen by God. I would love to see the Christians respond. I should point out that I, as a Christian, will state Scripture as my proof/evidence in this matter.
We left off the other thread with most folks claiming that they choose to be saved.(free will} My question is, is where is this found in Scripture?. Now I understand there is alot of human tradition to support "free will"
All over America on Sunday mormings you have Priests, and Pastors giving "invitations" to be saved. How many of you have been told to "say this prayer" and you will be saved? How many of you have heard the following..."I accepted Jesus"........"I now choose Jesus"........"I allowed Jesus to come into my life"...ect?
The truth be told, none of the sayings have a Biblical base. Throughout the New Testament, in both the Gospels, and the letters to the Christian Church, and the Hebrews, not once does Christ, or Paul, or Luke, or anyone suggest that we choose to be saved.
It is true that Paul teaches through out the epistles the code of conduct for Christians, but keep in mind that he is talking to the Christians in Rome, Corinth, Galatia, Ephesus,Phillipi, ect........
In fact, it is quite the opposite. In the Gospel of John, Jesus says "I chose you, you did not choose me". He also says in John 3:18 , before His death, and before His Spirit was poured out that there were those "condemned already"
In the first chapter of his letter to the church in Ephesus, Paul says that Jesus "chose us in Him before the creation of the world". , and that we were "chosen, having been predestined according to his plan"
Perhaps the most evident point of God's Sovereign choice is the belief of Peter. Throughout the Gospels this man Peter who witnessed the water being turned into wine, who watched a dead man rise and walk, who himself walked on water {yes Peter walked on water}, and who watched numerous other miracles STILL denied the Christ at His arrest. This man who told Jesus that he believed, denied him, and doubted him outside the temple.
Strange you ask?......Not at all. All throughout Israels history they had required signs to have faith, and God saw that this was bad, so he sent a Saviour, so that all who BELIEVE in Him, shall not perish., BUT WAIT, there is that word BELIEVE. Peter told Jesus to His face that he BELIEVED, and what did Jesus say back?......He said to Peter........"You will deny me 3 times"
Christ understood that just saying you believed was not good enough. In the Gospel of Luke He says when asked if everyone will be saved, that many will profess belief in Him, and brag of their knowledge of His commands, yet many will be locked out.
Peter, by himself, like you, and like I, are INCAPABLE of believing in Christ. The Bible makes it perfectly clear that it was not until the Spirit of Christ was poured out that the unbelievers eyes were opened, and when the Spirit moved on them, they were then able to believe.
You can say all the prayers you want, walk the ailse, and kneel at the altar. You can have men pray over you, and for you, and annoint you with oil, but until the Spirit of Christ choses to take up residence in you, your belief is as true as Peters was before Christ was arrested.
Well Scat, since you posted the7th chapter of Matthew, how about you giving an overview of it. It's quite a weighty chapter full of some of Christ's best stuff. What do you think???
Matthew 7
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
Put yourself in the other guys shoes, don't judge someone on something you yourself do, analyze YOUSELF before you analyze others.
6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
This tells me that ask for the path that is narrow and less traveled and the way will be shown to you. Do you have children messageman ? If so and they asked for supper, would you give it to them ? We are the children of God, if you ask for the bread, He will provide it.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Theres are preachers that will tell you exactly what you want to hear, not what you NEED to hear, and they will do it by saying Amen and Praise God and never mean a word of it messageman and we are warned of this.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
Just sums up that IF you are listening, IF you heed the warnings and understand the verses your soul will be fine.
Messageman,
Please answer the following question. And I would like for you to do so without quoting some other verse, somewhere else.
Mark 10 is a story about a rich man. Jesus asks him to sell everything he has and give it all to the poor, then follow him. The man is sad because he does not want to give all his belongings up. And then Jesus asks his disciples in verse 23, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the Kingdom of God!"
Why would it be hard for this man to enter Heaven? Jesus gave him the choice. If what you say is true, it would not be difficult, because God would have chosen for this man.
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"It's not the size of the dog in the fight..... It's the size of the fight in the dog."
Scat, your overview reads like a 6th grade book report because you are not reading in the Spirit, but rather you are just using the Scripture to be vintictive. I doubt you have read that Scripture in a long , long time, if ever .
Now, the topic is on "choice". Either make your points for or against it, or move on and start your own thread.
Scat, your overview reads like a 6th grade book report because you are not reading in the Spirit, but rather you are just using the Scripture to be vintictive. I doubt you have read that Scripture in a long , long time, if ever .
Now, the topic is on "choice". Either make your points for or against it, or move on and start your own thread.
More trashing of your fellow man. You trying to do battle for Christ here or against him? Or is stealthycat not of the chosen and you already know this. Seems like God gave you the ability to judge since you are telling stealthycat what he knows and does not know and what and how much he reads. Do you think YOU are God? SC's comments were fine, to the point, and well thought out.
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We were made by God and for God, and until you figure that out, life isn't going to make sense.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a civilization, it expects what never was and what never will be.
Whose Choice?
