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Politics Nothing goes with politics quite like crying and complaining, and we're a perfect example of that.

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Old 02-03-2004, 06:52 AM   #1
 
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Old 02-03-2004, 08:28 PM   #2
fng
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Default RE: James Madison #2

You like Madison?

Read federalist #10, you'll really start to reel in wonder as to why Jefferson considered him a good friend.


Madison was the colonial equivalent of Lincoln.
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Old 02-04-2004, 05:29 AM   #3
 
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Old 02-04-2004, 06:50 PM   #4
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Default RE: James Madison #2

Read the federalist papers, then read the "anti-federalist papers".

It was rumored for many years that Jefferson was the author of the anti papers. It of course was wrong, it was a very close political ally of his.

but everyone should be forced to compare and contrast the two.

the two documents represent the reason for the civil war-- a war which will ultimately send this country into a tailspin from hell.
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Old 02-04-2004, 06:58 PM   #5
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Default RE: James Madison #2

Hi fng,

What exactly are those two documents. I have to admit I'm not very knowledgable with a lot of history, as I spent a lot of time not actually in school. But now I do have a great interest to study American History. Thanks.
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Old 02-04-2004, 07:08 PM   #6
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Default RE: James Madison #2

In colonial timesthere were sets of articles written in local newspapers that were published weekly. They were published in different papers to sway people's opinions.

One was later dubbed the "federalist papers" and one the "anti-federalist papers". The federalist papers were actually written by Hamilton, Madison and Jay ... (Jay being the only one in that bunch that ultimately I really like, the other two were prima donna schit heads).

Then there was the anti-federalist papers. The author is still not known to this day ( i believe).

Federalist papers are all for a strong centralized gooobermint like we have now, that steals you money and dictates from afar.

Anti-federalist papers were all for pushing for states rights...

good stuff.
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Old 02-05-2004, 04:44 PM   #7
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Default RE: James Madison #2

Cool, thanks.
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Old 02-05-2004, 06:20 PM   #8
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Default RE: James Madison #2

here is a good article for you:


We Worship Jefferson, But We Have Become Hamilton's America


EVERYBODY WHO IS anybody was there -- at least among those 750 or so Americans who adore Alexander Hamilton. Representatives of the Thomas Jefferson and Aaron Burr factions also turned out in force.


Two hundred years ago this summer, Hamilton died from a single bullet fired by Burr, then America's vice president, in a duel in Weehawken, N.J. Hamilton's early death, at the age of 47, denied him the opportunity -- or aggravation -- of watching America become a Hamiltonian nation while worshipping the gospel according to Thomas Jefferson.


Now, some Hamiltonians have decided to try to elevate their candidate to the pantheon of great early Americans. Last weekend, scholars, descendents and admirers of Hamilton gathered at the New-York Historical Society in Manhattan to kick off their campaign and sing the praises of America's first treasury secretary, who created the blueprint for America's future as a mighty commercial, political and military power.


The conference was sponsored by the Gilder Lehrman Institute of American History.


But the overflow crowd also had to grapple with the unfortunate fact that many Americans have negative impressions of Alexander Hamilton. Perhaps Ezra Pound expressed their feelings most poetically when he described Hamilton as "the Prime snot in ALL American history."


YET, AS ONE HAMILTON acolyte, Edward Hochman, a Paterson, N.J., lawyer, asked the assembled experts: If Hamilton's vision of America "won" in the long run, "why do we love Jefferson?"


"Because," historian John Steele Gordon responded dryly, "most intellectuals love Jefferson and hate markets, and it's mostly intellectuals who write books."


Even Hamilton's detractors, including members of the Aaron Burr Association, concede that he was a brilliant administrator, who understood financial systems better than anyone else in the country. He laid the groundwork for the nation's banks, commerce and manufacturing, and was rewarded by being pictured on the $10 bill. "We can pay off his debts in 15 years," Thomas Jefferson lamented, "but we can never get rid of his financial system."


Jefferson's vision of America was the opposite of Hamilton's. Jefferson saw America as a loose confederation of agricultural states, while Hamilton envisioned a strong federal government guiding a transition to an urban, industrial nation. He is often called the "father of American capitalism" and the "patron saint of Wall Street."


The Hamiltonians have much historical prejudice to overcome. The real Hamilton was a difficult man, to put it mildly. He was dictatorial, imperious and never understood when to keep his mouth shut. "He set his foot contemptuously to work the treadles of slower minds," wrote an American historian, James Schouler, in 1880.


In the turbulent years of America's political birth, naked ambition for power was considered unseemly, except in the military. After the war, Hamilton, a courageous and skillful soldier, grabbed power aggressively and ruthlessly, indifferent to the trail of enemies he left behind. As a political theorist, he was regarded as a plutocrat and monarchist, partly because he favored a presidency with a life term.


JOHN ADAMS, America's second president, dismissed Hamilton as "the bastard brat of a Scotch pedlar" and "the Creole" (Hamilton was born in the West Indies, and his parents never married). George Mason, the Virginia statesman, said Hamilton and his machinations did "us more injury than Great Britain and all her fleets and armies."


"Sure, he made mistakes," concedes Doug Hamilton, a Columbus, Ohio, salesman for IBM, who calculates he is Hamilton's fifth great-grandson. "He was only human. But family is family."


Hamilton had at least one, and probably several, adulterous affairs (Martha Washington named her randy tomcat "Hamilton"). He was also a social snob and dandy. Hamilton, wrote Frederick Scott Oliver in his 1920 biography, "despised . . . people like Jefferson, who dressed ostentatiously in homespun." He "belonged to an age of silk stockings and handsome shoe buckles."


Historians find Hamilton something of a cipher. He didn't have the opportunity, as Adams and Jefferson did in their long retirements, to "spin, if not outright alter, the public record," noted Stephen Knott, author of "Alexander Hamilton and the Persistence of Myth."


Joanne Freeman, Yale history professor and editor of a collection of Hamilton's writings, agreed that "there are huge voids in our knowledge of him." Consequently, his legacy has been claimed by various political interests. Among his illustrious admirers are George Washington, Jefferson Davis, Theodore Roosevelt, Warren Harding and the French statesman Talleyrand.


At the 1932 Democratic convention, however, Franklin Roosevelt blamed "disciples of Alexander Hamilton" for the Great Depression.


By the time of Hamilton's death, he had dropped out of public life and returned to his law practice. Even so, wrote Frederick Oliver, "the world mourned him with a fervor that is remarkable, considering the speed with which it proceeded to forget him."
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Old 02-05-2004, 06:27 PM   #9
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Default RE: James Madison #2

Quote:
JOHN ADAMS, America's second president, dismissed Hamilton as "the bastard brat of a Scotch pedlar" and "the Creole" (Hamilton was born in the West Indies, and his parents never married). George Mason, the Virginia statesman, said Hamilton and his machinations did "us more injury than Great Britain and all her fleets and armies."
I absolutely love that line.
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Old 02-05-2004, 06:59 PM   #10
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Default RE: James Madison #2

Hi fng. Good article. I definately want to check out the Federalist/Anti-Federalist Papers. One more thing. Since I no longer have any of my old history books from school, are there any U.S. history books in particular that you would recommend to read? Thanks again.
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