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Politics Nothing goes with politics quite like crying and complaining, and we're a perfect example of that.

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Old 12-20-2003, 06:36 AM   #1
 
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Default this one is for StealthyZelazny

Considering recent discussions about certain sponsors of this site, I thought I would relay the following editorial. Before going on, I am not making any judgements based on the legality, or ethics of canned hunting, just relaying information. The following was taken from an editorial in the NY Times. Take note of the Outfitter listed in the editorial, and how their service is viewed by the anti-hunting/non-hunting.

STACKING THE HUNT

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/09/o...t&position=

WASHINGTON "” This fall, more than 10 million Americans went hunting. Some met with success, maybe even managing to bring home some ducks or geese or a deer. Of those who returned empty-handed, many did so with the knowledge that a fair hunt comes with no guarantees.

A growing number of people, however, are embracing a different set of rules "” they're taking part in hunts that are largely rigged. In the United States, there are at least 4,000 "canned hunting" operations, where people may pay thousands of dollars to pursue trophy animals that have little chance to escape. Bird-shooting operations offer pheasants, quail, partridges and mallard ducks, sometimes dizzying the birds and planting them in front of hunters or tossing them from towers toward waiting shotguns.

At ranches catering to big-game enthusiasts, hunters can shoot exotic species native to five continents "” everything from addax to zebra. "Tired of traveling, spending money and coming home with nothing to show for it?" reads an advertisement on the Web site for Old Stone Fence Hunting Adventures in Rensselaer Falls, N.Y. "Book your successful trophy hunt today! . . . No license required; no harvest "” no charge." Though enterprises like this claim to offer "fair chase" hunts, the promise is hollow, since the animals are confined in fences and the money changes hands only if the hunter gets a trophy.

How does an Arabian oryx or a Russian boar find its way to a hunting ground in Pennsylvania or Texas? Many are obtained at exotic animal auctions. A sale at one auction last year included zebras, camels, ostriches, kangaroos and lion cubs "” some destined for canned hunts, some for private collections. The three-day sale of 3,225 animals brought in more than $1.5 million.

Of course, no one would expect someone like me "” a person who works for the Humane Society "” to support canned hunting. But in this fight, animal advocates are not alone. A good many hunters also find the practice abhorrent. In its 2003 national hunting survey, Field & Stream magazine asked readers what they thought about hunting animals "in enclosures or fenced-in ranches." Sixty-five percent of those who responded opposed the practice; 12 percent endorsed it and 23 percent said they had no opinion. Game ranches have also been denounced by a number of outdoor sporting groups, including the Izaak Walton League of America, the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation and the Boone and Crockett Club, which oversees national hunting records.

The hunts go on, though, in part because they have the support of the National Rifle Association and Safari Club International, a pre-eminent trophy hunting organization.

In fact, it's the Safari Club's award program that helps to drive patronage of canned hunting operations. To win the club's Africa Big Five award, for example, you have to go to Africa to shoot the elephant, the rhinoceros and the leopard, but you can pick off the Cape buffalo and the lion in the United States. There is even an award for Introduced Trophy Animals of North America, in which you can do all your hunting for 18 different species right here at home. In fact, you can shoot all of the species for an award category at just one place. It's one-stop shopping. No more expensive fortnights in the wilds of Africa "” and no one to know whether the head mounted above the mantel came from Asia or Oklahoma.

But canned hunting is more than crass "” it's cruel. Animals are sometimes drugged, shot in their cages or at a feeder, or killed slowly with spears. Despite this, only 13 states have passed laws to ban canned hunts involving mammals. This year, New York almost passed such a law, but it was vetoed in August by Gov. George Pataki. New York lawmakers should try again. And so should legislators in other states and in Congress, which has the authority to ban the interstate transport of exotic mammals destined for canned hunts.

Canned hunting belongs in the same category as other forms of animal abuse, like cockfighting and bullfighting. It's hard on animals and easy on people "” and it should be against the law.

Copyright 2003 The New York Times Company
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Old 12-20-2003, 11:40 AM   #2
 
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Default RE: this one is for StealthyZelazny

The difference is the use of the word "hunting".

People, even the Humane Society, have no issues (yet) with the killing of cattle, chickens and pigs etc in a humane way. Caged deer etc would be exactly the same except people call it hunting - they misuse the word and lump what people do on canned "hunt" into the 10 million "hunters" nationwide.

reylamb - and everyone else. Did I not say, have I not insisted, that the existance of such places as Old Stone Fence is detrimental to hunting ? This NY Times article is exactly what I was talking about. Wow, I am shaking my head that the very same operation that I complained about has been targeted by NY Times and other groups as NOT hunting at all.

Cougar Mag - Do you agree now that Old Stone Fence is a NEGATIVE to hunting as you and I know it ? We can disagree about crossbows all day, but in the end you and I are not that different in our views of what Hunting really is - and Old Stone Fence and other operations do NOT fall into what Hunting is.

I do not want Hunting regulated either based on emotions - but there HAS to be a definition on what Hunting is - our legal system is built that way and its coming to a point now where its what we as hunters have to decide and deal with that as more and more laws/legislature etc are voted on to govern wildlife, superceeding the G&F depts of each state.







Hunting.Net - what say ya'll on this ?


No topics and/or statements which could be used to reflect poorly on hunting, archery or firearms. Anti-hunting and other posts indicating a stance against the hunting, archery and firearm industry will be removed.
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Old 12-20-2003, 11:56 AM   #3
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Default RE: this one is for StealthyZelazny

Quote:
Cougar Mag - Do you agree now that Old Stone Fence is a NEGATIVE to hunting as you and I know it ?

To use a phrase that is vey popular with our own member Cybil, oops, I mean Stealthy............

PROVE IT!

I bet you don`t believe a single thing the NY Times has to say when it does NOT fit your agenda!

Be honest now.
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Old 12-20-2003, 12:22 PM   #4
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Default RE: this one is for StealthyZelazny

I deleted a previous post I had made, so in defense of Zelasny/Stealthycat, I wanted you all to know.

I will only say this........................I hate canned hunts in my own definition of canned hunts. To me a canned hunt involves a person who pays an operation a fee to shoot an animal(most times trophy size), in an enclosure whereas, the animal has been fed and watered in a manner not unlike livestock, and are not wild.


As far as many thousands of acres being fenced in, as long as the animals hunted are free ranging within that high fenced operation, I see that as a lesser problem OR no problem at all. Personally, I will not and would not hunt within any high fenced in operation, because I enjoy scouting and putting my own time in hunting. To me that is the hunt....the practice, preparation, scouting, hanging stands, matching wits with the animal on his terms. I like to fill my freezer as much as anyone, but that is of lesser consequence. The journey is what makes my memories.

Those who hunt a large Texas ranch for example or on any outfitted hunt in any state, and sits in a tower waiting to pick off the animal of his choosing that happens by, well, that is not my cup of tea either BUT, that is not a canned hunt!!!
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Old 12-20-2003, 12:46 PM   #5
 
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Default RE: this one is for StealthyZelazny

Quote:
I hate canned hunts in my own definition of canned hunts. To me a canned hunt involves a person who pays an operation a fee to shoot an animal(most times trophy size), in an enclosure whereas, the animal has been fed and watered in a manner not unlike livestock, and are not wild.
Then by your definition you hate Old Stone Fence and what they represent.

Thing is, your definition is what most peoples definition is too - we are all together on this for the most part.

So why does a HUNTING site have a sponsor that even its own Moderators label as canned hunting ?

Big Country - Who the heck is Cybil ? I did not start this thread, I am expanding on it. My agenda ? What IS my agenda, because other than debating serious issues I didn't know I had one.
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Old 12-20-2003, 12:54 PM   #6
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Default RE: this one is for StealthyZelazny

Zel., that is my personal definition, it may not be everyone elses. What you and I see may be seen differently by others. Our definition of hunting and what we love about hunting may be completely different than others.

This topic may well be better served in the politics forum, not in the bowhunting forum.
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Old 12-20-2003, 01:30 PM   #7
 
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Default RE: this one is for StealthyZelazny

IMO....Canned Kills are any Kills where the animal is fenced in to the degree that its ability to travel freely is eliminated regardless of the amount of acreage. Further if it is provided with food that is specifically grown or placed for the purpose of causing the animal to come to certian areas to feed so it is a canned kill.

In no way is that hunting.
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Old 12-20-2003, 02:13 PM   #8
 
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Default RE: this one is for StealthyZelazny

Here we go again...Geesh!!
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Old 12-20-2003, 02:22 PM   #9
 
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Default RE: this one is for StealthyZelazny

Cougar - When your state's non-hunters vote to restrict, regulate or stop hunting altogether against Hunters, then maybe you'll realize the severity of the issue.

As I have said in the past, when anti-hunters/non-hunters etc banned lion hunting, who would have thought it possible ? Spring bear hunting, trapping, dove hunting, etc etc - all attacked in the past, and all partially or totally stopped.

Many reasons WHY those efforts were successful. The majority of Americans see canned hunting - like Old Stone Fence - as NOT ETHICAL and the exact type they'd just as soon see banned as not. That is fact Cougar, you and I are not isolated in that belief, the NY Times article reflects that very idea, that canned "hunting" is not hunting at all, but since no one will step forward and say its not, they'll just attack ALL hunting.
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Old 12-20-2003, 10:32 PM   #10
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Default RE: this one is for StealthyZelazny

I think everyone agrees that canned hunts are not hunts at all.

As far as a reference to an advertiser here, you need to take your concerns to the administrators of this site.
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