I've had some irritating arguments on this page and thought I'd post for all a link will illustrates the Gross National Debt at around 55 Trillion Dollars - which would be around 350% GDP....
I contend its higher - around 77 Trillion due primarily to the MBS derivatives owned by the treasury and the toxic mortgages dumped on Fannie and Freddie (our GSE's). Their valuations of those I believe are purposefully inaccurate.
You got to remember, those are empty lies included in those debt numbers which will force a drastic change to SS, Medicare and Medicaid. Congress has the power to change and/ or completely cancel benefits. That would wipe out that debt.
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John Adams “The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence.”
Ronald Reagan: 'Everybody that is for abortion has already been born'
"I never said I was worth it. I only said I wouldn't do it for less " William F. Buckley Jr.
These numbers are sourced by the US Treasury - and what signs or symptoms do you see coming from congress to change the entitlements or cancel them? 64 million baby boomers who spent their whole lives paying 15% into these programs are going to have no benefits? I doubt it.
And the current levels of spending won't grow to accomodate the worlds largest generation?
And even if they draw the line - what will rising interest rates, surely coming over the next 3-5 years, do? Continuous compounding on 55 trillion dollars....
It will be the fastest way out of public office for those that kill the entitlements on the boomers.
You and I differ in that fact that you believe our government will DO the right thing and cancel these socialist programs and I believe they wont - they show no signs of it - in fact no country does (around the world).
And if they do - imagine the riots in the this country.
Our leaders continue to lie about the rest of the world - the riots in the middle east - they said - these people want freedom.
I didn't see that - I saw hungry people that were rioting to get food!
I think the same thing is coming here - I've read dozens of books on both viewpoints and watch the markets, and read the legislation as well as the history of previous nations who have and have failed at the same thing we're doing.
They will not fix their problems - they haven't even begun to...
You watched way too much Glen Beck without verifying anything on your own. Congress has no choice but to reform entitlements or the laws of economics will do it for them.
Seniors wont be left out on the streets, when the majority is worth north of 200k, they have options along with Congress.
Fyi, they may have been paying all their life, that doesn't mean they paid their entire bill. Fact is they haven't.
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John Adams “The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence.”
Ronald Reagan: 'Everybody that is for abortion has already been born'
"I never said I was worth it. I only said I wouldn't do it for less " William F. Buckley Jr.
I've actually never watched Glen Beck - you keep missing me on your accusations....
And again - I've not seen a single link that you've posted containing any fact - All I see is my links - and regarding this - what are you going to post? An opinion artical that supports your position - I'm sure I've read it and it doesn't add up or would be a mis-interpretation of actual current events.
You talk about the laws of economics - who, in washington, is following those?? No body! Its print, print, print and hide the real numbers.
They beleive they can devalue the dollar to pay off the debt with cheaper dollars. Some say that is good policy - I of course disagree - but bet that is what they will try to do.
And BTW - you didn't mention how they will stay in office after they do cut them.
Christ Fieldmouse - I'd nearly agree with you 100% on philosophy but what I post is that what I see - they are bending the numbers onto themselves. The bigggest difference between us is that I don't trust them or their numbers and you do. What is your answer to that?
That is why I don't hold their currency - I hold only enough dollars to pay the bills - every spare dollar goes into aquiring assets - even if its just a few silver eagles.
Oh yea - and lots for food plots, tree stands, min licks, trail cams, etc - but we all have our vices.
Too funny. Perhaps before we continue you may want to read an economics book. That way you could understand a little more about the laws of economics. It might help you understand what it means when they sell more gold and silver than is available. You know just enough to be dangerous.
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John Adams “The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence.”
Ronald Reagan: 'Everybody that is for abortion has already been born'
"I never said I was worth it. I only said I wouldn't do it for less " William F. Buckley Jr.
Fieldmouse - two things - your impossible to reason with because you don't read my posts - guessing you skim them.
Plus - you've taken a ton of shots at me and I don't really understand why - I'm not selling you (or anyone else) anything.
And its precisely my point - they HAVE been selling more gold and silver than is available - they is why we are only at 1600/oz. But just as they can't print money forever, they can create paper gold and silver forever.
You think the physical will crash with paper and I think, by that time - people will not trust paper and the metals will separate themselves from ETF's and similar instruments. Now we are dealing with finite supply for gold and undersupply for silver.
BTW - plenty of governments buys gold and silver as well - perhaps stocking the reserves to retie their currency to the metals when they decide not to allow the dollar to back their currency any longer? Or - perhaps by your rationale, they are idiots.
Man - I think your a poor debator, you don't have or present any facts or specifics and remember the old saying - the first sign of defeat is anger and you sound angry!
Too funny. You don't ready my facts I posted. What part of they trade more gold in one year than has ever been dug out of the ground don't you understand? The gold market is nothing but worthless paper just Luke the dollar you despise. Furthermore if everything collapses it wont be worth much to you because there isn't anything useful you can do with it.
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John Adams “The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence.”
Ronald Reagan: 'Everybody that is for abortion has already been born'
"I never said I was worth it. I only said I wouldn't do it for less " William F. Buckley Jr.
But you offer no statistics or events. You are correct - but again and again I state my contention that the ETF market will separate from the physical market. They have alread started.
Gov't manipulation will make this occur faster. When silver went to 50/oz in april this year the CFTC changed the margin requirements for the silver ETFs. That forced a mass liquidation of the paper as the companies either had to pony up more money or liquidate the ETF to meet the margin call. Silver plummeted losing almost 10/oz in only a few hours.
Folks who got in at a low price were sent a check on the forced liquidation. Many where angry because they thought (also as you contended) that they owned the physical metal and were disappointed to learn they only owned paper.
But now the price is back up - only a few short months later to 40-41/oz. I believe (note I said belief) the rebound is due to a pick up in the physical silver market.
They've been doing the exact same thing to gold -but gold is more popular - especially the metal - ups and downs (percentage wise) have been much smaller.
I believe the system is empting out the paper gold and silver market which has been used to surpress the price while the currency debasement occurred 2007-QE2.
If the economy would have taken hold after QE2 - your right - gold might or might not be a great investment.. But QE2 did nothing. In fact there are reports that US bank balance sheets never saw the money - but european banks balance sheets are up like 825 billion dollars (QE2 was supp to be 800billion). Whether or not thats true - I don't know.
What I do know is - the economy is not back - adjusted for real inflation - its still shrinking and our gov't is still spending and wants to spend more and the QE3 is now floating around, the dollar's reserve status being questioned and europe very sick and unicredit (one of europes oldest banks) in trouble.
So again I ask - what numberical facts or historical facts do you posses that could detail gold falling in price if current economic conditions and monetary debasement continue. This is where I would like to see you post facts (numbers, dates, events, etc) - not your opinion.
Last edited by Barto1; 07-25-2011 at 01:41 PM.
Reason: clarification
Gross National Debt
