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Old 05-30-2011, 09:06 AM   #1
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This is what happens when drug companies are always attacked for price, quality and plain doing good business. This problem is only going to get worst if Obamacare is left in place. The only limiting factor to medical treatment should be your ability to pay. Not some pencil pusher deciding it for you.

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2011/0...drug-shortage/
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Old 05-30-2011, 09:54 AM   #2
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Whose to say this isn't some form of collusion amongst the drug companies to push up prices?

Really, this isn't about helping people. It's about not producing cheaper generics when the expensive full price brands are available.

The strategy involved to create higher revenues that apparently seems to be here is quite simple and effective actually. Why not sell the expensive re-formulated brands when you can? Creating a shortage to push up demand for the product is rather ingenius.

It reminds of the diamond price fixing that has gone on for decades.

You claim the drug companies are being attacked for good business practices, yet, you are complaining about the excellent self-made shortage strategy they are using to realize higher profits. In all respects they are utilizing drug patents to corner their respective markets and shoot up the prices for the products they make. Very ingenius to say the least. Unscrupulous to a degree, sure, but very business savvy.

They are utilizing an outstanding business model. They hold the supply, and set the price at a level we have to pay if we want to use their stock. The demand comes from wanting to live with whatever illness we have, or our loved ones have, and needing the supply the drug companies have.

I'm betting that some of the drug companies by and large are manufacturing the bare minimum amount needed to maximize their profit margins. So, when anything slows down production then a shortage occurs. When that happens, then prices go up until the production levels get caught up again.

In both scenarios I've outlined, they mean more profits, for different reasons to different companies.
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Old 05-30-2011, 02:21 PM   #3
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Take an economics class Sfury. For over 5 years drug makers have been attacked due to " profits". Not profits out of line like any other industry just like oil companies but profits due to the total amount. Now what are we getting as a result? Less drugs. Sure, they are the one conspiring to raise their profits just to be attacked more.
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Old 05-30-2011, 04:19 PM   #4
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I think you need to re-read the article. My understanding and scenarios given were based upon the facts given.

You have baseless conjecture.

I was taught to analyze, think, and then propose solutions based upon the evidence given. Which is what I did.
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Old 05-30-2011, 04:29 PM   #5
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No, no need to reread anything. I read it. I also have been following the demonization of an industry for years now. One can throw many suggestions as to why drugs are becoming less available which is just what the article is doing. However, the truth can be realized in the fact when you relentlessly go after an industry for doing nothing more than provide a product, you get less of it. Go take an economics course.
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Ronald Reagan: 'Everybody that is for abortion has already been born'

"I never said I was worth it. I only said I wouldn't do it for less " William F. Buckley Jr.
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Old 05-31-2011, 03:39 AM   #6
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If yo uwere correct than we would have no gasoline. The big oil companies have been gone after for far longer nad have far greater profits.

You apparently have no concept of what it takes to safely manufacture drugs following the FDA rules. The rules that have led to some of the shortages so that what drugs we do have are safe for consumption.

Also, the amount of money some companies have to put into R&D makes producing generics extremely cost-ineffective.

Lawsuits don't cause shortages of products. At least not long term shortages like you are suggesting unless companies go out of business. Which the article did not mention happening so that is a non-issue with the evidence you gave.

Lawsuits cause increases in prices. Long term price increases to deal with handling lawsuits. This has been proven to be true with many different products/services being sold. Malpractice Insurance for Doctors' being the best example currently. Look up the numbers to see what percentage it cost a Doctor 30 years ago compared to today.

The economics courses I had in high school, and the one I had the Technical College level, is more than enough to help me understand the basic truths here. I think you should take a logics course. I know I enjoyed the one I took when I was at the University. It would enlighten you as to why your arguments often lack sense or flow of thought.
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Old 05-31-2011, 04:27 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sfury View Post
If yo uwere correct than we would have no gasoline. The big oil companies have been gone after for far longer nad have far greater profits.
no shortage of gasoline? The speculators believe we do. How come we are paying $4/ gallon?
Quote:
You apparently have no concept of what it takes to safely manufacture drugs following the FDA rules. The rules that have led to some of the shortages so that what drugs we do have are safe for consumption.
really no concept considering I live in a drup Mecca of manufactures with family and friends in the business let alone and active investor. Hmmm, good one.
Quote:
Also, the amount of money some companies have to put into R&D makes producing generics extremely cost-ineffective.
so are you telling me profits actually mean something? Remember, the Dems don't like profits made by the drug companies. They are demanding less competition and more dictating to the drug companies. They want to tell the drug companies what the government will pay. They don't negotiate.
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Lawsuits don't cause shortages of products. At least not long term shortages like you are suggesting unless companies go out of business. Which the article did not mention happening so that is a non-issue with the evidence you gave.
really. Didn't you just suggest profits actually mean something? Now you're saying they don't mean anything long term? How come we have less and less manufactures of vaccines today than we did 20 years ago?
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Lawsuits cause increases in prices. Long term price increases to deal with handling lawsuits. This has been proven to be true with many different products/services being sold. Malpractice Insurance for Doctors' being the best example currently. Look up the numbers to see what percentage it cost a Doctor 30 years ago compared to today.
there you go hinting about profits being a market driver. Why don't you look up the number of doctors who no longer take Medicare and Medicaid patients? How many more were taking it 30 years ago? How many private "club" physicians are now out there compared to 30 years ago? You know, the ones that charge a yearly fee to be in there practice. That was unheard of 30 years ago.
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The economics courses I had in high school, and the one I had the Technical College level, is more than enough to help me understand the basic truths here. I think you should take a logics course. I know I enjoyed the one I took when I was at the University. It would enlighten you as to why your arguments often lack sense or flow of thought.
you need to demand a refund!
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Ronald Reagan: 'Everybody that is for abortion has already been born'

"I never said I was worth it. I only said I wouldn't do it for less " William F. Buckley Jr.
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Old 05-31-2011, 05:23 AM   #8
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This guy is a prime example of why we Libs, some people can only see the glass half empty, never half full. They see the world through different eyes!
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Old 05-31-2011, 05:24 AM   #9
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no shortage of gasoline? The speculators believe we do. How come we are paying $4/ gallon?
Simple, it's a shortage caused by the sellers, maybe the even the buyers. We seem to be willing to pay the current price which means the pressure to lower it at the source level isn't there.

Oh, if we had a shortage like the medication shortage, we would have gas stations without gasoline instead of expensinve gasoline. It's comparing apples to oranges at this time.

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really no concept considering I live in a drup Mecca of manufactures with family and friends in the business let alone and active investor. Hmmm, good one.
I see no argument here. Baseless statements with no argument mean a concession of point. Like I said, you could use a course in logic.

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so are you telling me profits actually mean something? Remember, the Dems don't like profits made by the drug companies. They are demanding less competition and more dictating to the drug companies. They want to tell the drug companies what the government will pay. They don't negotiate.
I'm not a very liberal person. I'm not so stupid that I think my basically worthless state representative (I don't live in his region) who signed on to the stupid idea of merging companies has a clue about this. Well, actually, he might. As the owner of the Kohls chain stores this may just be helping out another group of major company owners to realize higher profits by eliminating some competition, and tightening the stranglehold they have on the market.

Either way, merging companies together isn't likely to equal less expensive drugs.

I understand that many elected representatives have tried to impose prices on various markets. That sets up a dangerous precedent that only hurts more in the long run. Look at Wisconsin's slowly failing milk market. The further you are away from Eau Claire, the more you get paid for a gallon of milk. Government price fixing at it's worse. There are companies that sell the cheapest bought milk in the nation for higher profits because of the deserved reputation that it tastes better than milk from the rest of the US.

The farmers, some of them my family and friends, are getting shorted by the goverment. Many of the family farms are slowly going under because of the diminished profits in recent years because the goverment is slow to change the price structure to allow for increases in production costs.

So, yes, I am acutely aware of the mindset of goverment price fixing and the long term detriment it can cause. The milk price fixing is just a minor example of government over micro-management.

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really. Didn't you just suggest profits actually mean something? Now you're saying they don't mean anything long term? How come we have less and less manufactures of vaccines today than we did 20 years ago?
Regulations have changed for this field as with many others causing increases in production costs. Companies have merged together in many different fields. The question here is do the lack of overall companies have to do with mergers or failures? The other question is, did they simply move overseas as many other companies have?

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there you go hinting about profits being a market driver. Why don't you look up the number of doctors who no longer take Medicare and Medicaid patients? How many more were taking it 30 years ago? How many private "club" physicians are now out there compared to 30 years ago? You know, the ones that charge a yearly fee to be in there practice. That was unheard of 30 years ago.
A lot of Doctors, medical practices, stopped taking Medicare/Medicaid patients for the same reasons they stopped taking BadgerCare patients in Wisconsin. The paperwork involved in treating those patients is a nightmare, and then it takes a long time to get paid. The red tape and issues within the bureaucratic system make a lot of people want to avoid working with those systems rather than just helping everyone.

Club physicians existed 30 years ago too. Are there more today than yesterday? I don't know. However, two of my neighbors growing up were "club doctors" as you put it. I'm guessing seeing as they were part of a group of six thirty years ago I'm guessing they were part of a group of like-minded physicians at the time. They weren't rebels, they were professionals following one of the private practive models that still exists today.

Quote:
you need to demand a refund!
Seeing as you aren't winning the non-existent debate you began, that seems doubtful. Some good reading comprehension courses coupled with a good logics class would help you out tremendously.

Oh, and as you did agree with me that these are private corporations that need profits in order to stay in business. Another point that has been conceded to myself by you.

I did start out by saying that this was a profits driven issue to begin with. How you missed that is beyond me. It's not the first time you've missed the points being made by myself or others on this forum.
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Old 05-31-2011, 08:13 AM   #10
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This guy is a prime example of why we Libs, some people can only see the glass half empty, never half full. They see the world through different eyes!
You can say that again. Sfury is spinning in circles.
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Ronald Reagan: 'Everybody that is for abortion has already been born'

"I never said I was worth it. I only said I wouldn't do it for less " William F. Buckley Jr.
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