Intimidate voters in Philly, ok. Licensed to carry, no!
A story in today's Philadelphia Daily News shows why it's so important that citizens be allowed to videotape cops - it can be citizens' only way to fight back against police abuse of power.
This incident happened several weeks ago in Philadelphia to Mark Fiorino, a 25-year-old IT worker who carries a gun on his hip at all times for self defense. He got the gun after several friends were mugged.
But he didn't count on attacks by police:
On a mild February afternoon, Fiorino, 25, decided to walk to an AutoZone on Frankford Avenue in Northeast Philly with the .40-caliber Glock he legally owns holstered in plain view on his left hip. His stroll ended when someone called out from behind: "Yo, Junior, what are you doing?"
Fiorino wheeled and saw Sgt. Michael Dougherty aiming a handgun at him.
What happened next would be hard to believe, except that Fiorino audio-recorded all of it: a tense, profanity-laced, 40-minute encounter with cops who told him that what he was doing - openly carrying a gun on the city's streets - was against the law.
"Do you know you can't openly carry here in Philadelphia?" Dougherty asked, according to the YouTube clip.
"Yes, you can, if you have a license to carry firearms," Fiorino said. "It's Directive 137. It's your own internal directive."
Fiorino was right. It was perfectly legal to carry the gun. But that didn't matter to the cop:
Fiorino offered to show Dougherty his driver's and firearms licenses. The cop told him to get on his knees.
"Excuse me?" Fiorino said.
"Get down on your knees. Just obey what I'm saying," Dougherty said.
"Sir," Fiorino replied, "I'm more than happy to stand here -"
"If you make a move, I'm going to f------ shoot you," Dougherty snapped. "I'm telling you right now, you make a move, and you're going down!"
"Is this necessary?" Fiorino said.
It went on like that for a little while, until other officers responded to Dougherty's calls for backup.
Fiorino was forced to the ground and shouted at as he tried to explain that he had a firearms license and was legally allowed to openly carry his weapon.
"You f------ come here looking for f------ problems? Where do you live?" yelled one officer.
"I'm sorry, gentlemen," Fiorino said. "If I'm under arrest, I have nothing left to say."
"F------ a------, shut the f--- up!" the cop hollered.
The cops discovered his recorder as they searched his pockets, and unleashed another string of expletives.
Fiorino said he sat handcuffed in a police wagon while the officers made numerous phone calls to supervisors, trying to find out if they could lock him up.
When they learned that they were in the wrong, they let him go.
But only temporarily. Fiorino posted the audio recordings on youtube, and now they are harassing him again:
A new investigation was launched, and last month the District Attorney's Office decided to charge Fiorino with reckless endangerment and disorderly conduct because, a spokeswoman said, he refused to cooperate with police... He's scheduled for trial in July.
If one listens to the audiotapes, it's hard to imagine how a reasonable person could charge Fiorino (and not the cops) for disorderly conduct.
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For those who understand, no explanation is needed. For those who do
not understand, no explanation is possible.
A golf course is a willful and deliberate misuse of a perfectly good rifle range.
First of all why would anyone strap on a pistol that is in plain view? Holy smokes that is stupid, and second of all the cops didn’t know he could legally carry it, the guy probably looked like a kook thinking he was Wyatt Earp or something. The cops did handle it wrong after subduing him, but the incident wouldn’t have ever occurred had he IDIOT carry the pistol would have simply concealed it like most normal people with a license.
The last thing I want to do is tell the bad guys I’m packing!
Why am i not surprised that a guy was hassled by the cops for openly carrying a gun in Philly? Yep, open carry is still technically legal in a whole lot of anti-gun places: That does not make it a smart thing to do.
i'm surprised the idiot cops didn't kill the guy. Worst thing would have happened to them was suspension with pay while the local prosecutor "investigated".
Im not up on all the big citys laws at all( im sure many have there own, in addition to there states laws) but it seems Pa has a decent open carry law. Far as i know its always been legal here.
And now no licence is needed to carry them hidden here or required to either.
I can see why someone wouldnt in some states - where its not legal.
( even Ca has open carry in rural areas i guess-and there are some open carry orgs & groups, from what i been reading- ppl wanting to exersise those rights etc.
( no doubt some might want to exersise a lil commen sense when they do)
Open carry laws of loaded handguns (OpenCarry.org)[16] Gold Star Open Carry State
Open Carry Friendly State
Licensed Open Carry State
Non Permissive Open Carry State
Rural Open Carry State
In the United States, open carry is shorthand terminology for "openly carrying a firearm in public", as distinguished from concealed carry, where firearms cannot be seen by the casual observer.
The practice of open carry, where gun owners openly carry firearms while they go about their daily business, has seen an increase in the U.S. in recent years.[1][2] In the last decade,[when?] this has been marked by a number of organized events intended to increase the visibility of open carry and public awareness about the practice.[3] Critics of open carry, on the other hand, have raised concerns about right-wing extremism and the threat of armed revolt against the U.S. government.[4][5][6]
Encouraged by groups like OpenCarry.org, GeorgiaCarry.org and some participants of the Free State Project, open carry has seen a revival in recent years.[7][8][9] As of 2010, it is not yet clear if this represents a sea change, or just a short-term trend.
Open carry is strongly opposed by gun control groups such as the Brady Campaign and the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence.[12][13] Proponents of open carry point to history and statistics, noting that criminals usually conceal their weapons: The 2006 FBI study "Violent Encounters: A Study of Felonious Assaults on Our Nation's Law Enforcement Officers" by Anthony Pinizzotto revealed that criminals carefully conceal their firearms, and they eschew the use of holsters.
Open carry demonstrations and events
May 2, 1967 openly armed members of the Black Panther Party marched on the California State capitol[21] in opposition to the Mulford Act prohibiting the public carrying of loaded firearms. The act had been prompted by the Panthers patrolling with shotguns.
On June 16, 2000, the New Black Panther Party along with the National Black United Front and the New Black Muslim Movement protested the death sentencing conviction of Gary Graham, by openly carrying shotguns and rifles at the Texas Republican National convention in Houston, Texas.[22]
In 2003, gun rights supporters in Ohio used a succession of Open Carry "Defense Walks" attempting to persuade the Governor to sign concealed carry legislation into law.[23]
The legality of open carry of certain firearms in Virginia was reaffirmed after several 2004 incidents in which citizens openly carrying firearms were confronted by local law enforcement. The Virginia law prohibits the open carry, in certain localities, of any semiautomatic weapon holding more than 20 rounds or a shotgun that holds more than seven rounds, without a concealed carry permit.[24]
In 2008, Clachelle and Kevin Jensen, of Utah, were photographed together openly carrying handguns in the Salt Lake City International Airport near a "no weapons" sign. The photo led to an article in The Salt Lake Tribune about the airports preempted "no weapons" signs. After a few weeks, the city removed the unlawful signs.[25]
In 2008, Staff Sergeant Zachary Nelson Mead was detained in Richmond County, Georgia for openly carrying a firearm. The firearm was seized by Deputy Kadum Townsend. The organization GeorgiaCarry.org filed a lawsuit on behalf of Staff Sergeant Mead. The court declared that the seizure was a violation of the Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution, awarded court costs and attorney fees to Mead, and dismissed the remaining charges with prejudice.[26]
In 2008, Brad Krause of West Allis, Wisconsin was arrested by police for alleged disorderly conduct while openly carrying a firearm while planting a tree on his property. A court later acquitted him of the disorderly conduct charge, observing in the process that in Wisconsin there is no law dealing with the issue of unconcealed weapons.[27]
On April 20, 2009, Wisconsin Attorney General J.B. Van Hollen issued a memorandum to district attorneys stating that open carry was legal and in and of itself does not warrant a charge of disorderly conduct. Milwaukee police chief Ed Flynn instructed his officers to take down anyone with a firearm, take the gun away, and then determine if the individual could legally carry it until they could make sure the situation is safe.[28]
On May 31, 2009, Washington OpenCarry members held an open carry protest picnic at Silverdale's Waterfront Park, a county park. Attendees openly carried handguns in violation of posted regulations prohibiting firearms at the park. Kitsap county Sheriff's deputies were on hand, in part to explain to the public why they weren't enforcing the park's posted gun ban. Washington state law allows the open carrying of firearms and specifically preempts local ordinances more restrictive than the state's. Kitsap County has left its parks gun ban on the books and continues to publicly post it with other park regulations. Because the law is not practically enforceable, there has been confusion among gun owners as to whether open carry will be tolerated.[29]
In July 2009, an open carry event organized by OpenCarry.org took place at Pacific Beach, San Diego, California, where citizens carrying unloaded pistols and revolvers were subjected to Section 12031(e) inspections of their firearms on demand by police officers. The officers were obviously well-briefed on the details of the law, which allows Californians to openly carry only unloaded guns, but also allows carry of loaded magazines and speedloaders.[7]
On August 11, 2009, William Kostric, a New Hampshire resident, Free State Project participant, and former member of We The People [1]'s Arizona Chapter,[30] was seen carrying a loaded handgun openly in a holster while participating in a rally outside a town hall meeting hosted by PresidentBarack Obama at Portsmouth High School in New Hampshire. Kostric never attempted to enter the school, but rather stood some distance away on the private property of a nearby church, where he had permission to be. He held up a sign that read, "It's Time to Water the Tree of Liberty!".[31]
On August 16, 2009, "about a dozen" people were noted by police to be openly carrying firearms at a health care rally across the street from a Veterans of Foreign Wars Convention in the Phoenix Convention Center, where President Barack Obama was giving an address.[32] While the Secret Service was "very much aware" of these individuals, Arizona law does not prohibit open carry.[33] No crimes were committed by these protesters, and no arrests were made.[34] In an interview with Fox News, commentator James Wesley Rawles characterized the Phoenix protesters as "merely exercising a pre-existing right". When he was asked about open carry, "but...without a permit?" Rawles opined, "We have a permit--it is called the Second Amendment."[35]
On January 30, 2010 Members of Michigan Open Carry ( [2] ) were eating at a local Ponderosa Steakhouse in Lansing, Michigan when the local police department came and forced the citizens to leave.[36] A person rumored to be a United States Marine was carrying an AR-15 at this open carry event. A brief verbal argument ensued between the leader of the open carry group and the Lansing Police Department. No arrests were made; some of the law enforcement officers at the scene were given reprimands[citation needed] for their actions arising from the incident.
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Tomorrow hopes we have learned something from yesterday.
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There is nothing new in the idea of a government being Big Brother to us all. R.Reagan-1960
Wow, lets look at some of the comments from his fellow gun owners
Quote:
First of all why would anyone strap on a pistol that is in plain view? Holy smokes that is stupid
Maybe because he was legally licensed and legally within his right to do so.
Quote:
and second of all the cops didn’t know he could legally carry it, the guy probably looked like a kook thinking he was Wyatt Earp or something.
Theres so much wrong with that sentence I dont know where to begin.The cops should know the law if theyre going to try enforcing it.The guy offered to show them his permit to carry and even told them where to look the law up.Instead of being a**holes about it they coulda just as easily looked at his permit and radioed the call into a supervisor who should know the laws.
About the only thing he did wrong was fail to comply when the police ordered him down, thats hardly grounds for a reckless endangerment charge, and he hardly seemed disorderly.The only ones that looked like kooks were the police themselves.
Quote:
The cops did handle it wrong after subduing him, but the incident wouldn’t have ever occurred had he IDIOT carry the pistol would have simply concealed it like most normal people with a license.
Funny thing Rev, lotsa people in this country would consider anyone carrying a concealed weapon and idiot.I dont carry one but I certainly respect your deciscion to and support your right to carry it as you see fit.To bad you cant do the same isnt it?
Quote:
Why am i not surprised that a guy was hassled by the cops for openly carrying a gun in Philly? Yep, open carry is still technically legal in a whole lot of anti-gun places: That does not make it a smart thing to do.
You can certainly expect to be hassled by the police.Wheres the line on that?Should you expect to be called names, cursed at, and threatened with violence by a bunch of cops who dont know the laws in thier own state?
Or charged with something when you were breaking no laws to begin with and only after you made the police department look like the idiots they are?
You guys are funny, siding with the police while they harrass a legal gun owner who was well within his rights to carry as he seen fit.
The real IDIOT was the first cop ........ after he saw the guys permit it should have been over and done with because the guy was breaking no laws.......Here in Virginia you can open carry without a permit and it`s not unusual to see someone in a store or on the street open carrying.......if you want to conceal carry you have to have a permit.....i do open carry once in awhile and have never had a problem........
I believe almost every cell phone made in the last 10 years or so has that capability...
True, but it doesn't say a cell phone it said they found a recorder in his pocket...
__________________
I love Christmas lights. They remind me of the people who voted for Obama. They all hang together; half of them don't work, and the ones that do, aren't that bright.
For those who understand, no explanation is needed. For those who do
not understand, no explanation is possible.
A golf course is a willful and deliberate misuse of a perfectly good rifle range.
You guys are funny, siding with the police while they harrass a legal gun owner who was well within his rights to carry as he seen fit.
Show me where i sided with the police. Cops who are ignorant of state law are not peculiar to Philly. It happens all over the US: Folks get arrested, wounded and even killed by cops who are ignorant of state law.
Philly is one of the most anti-gun cities in the US. For many years Philly was a no issue jurisdiction: Philly was exempt from issuing PA concealed carry permits. The courts finally forced Philly to issue concealed carry permits.
Problem is the sorry cops never changed: They have the backing of a sorry prosecutor.
The application for a concealed carry permit is even different in Philly.
Quote:
Pennsylvania LTCF's are available to both residents and non-residents and are valid for 5 years. For residents, the applications are handled by their county sheriff's office, with the exception of Philadelphia where they are handled by the Gun Permits & Tracking Unit of the Philadelphia Police Department. It should be noted that permits issued by one county must be honored by all counties including Philadelphia regardless of rumors to the contrary.
Intimidate voters in Philly, ok. Licensed to carry, no!
