Both are anathema to the union mentality, from what I can figure.
The purpose of the union is to not lose jobs.....so cutting jobs is not acceptable. Also, benefits which have already been negotiated and signed contractually are off the table. So, owners cannot cut jobs, they cannot cut benefits, they must meet demands or face job actions, and they must retain jobs because layoffs can result in job actions. I'm gonna say Mr.Davis' take on it is what the general public opinion is too...hence, the complete lack of concern for union issues by the general public.
I have thought some about this. This kind of thinking is not unique to unions -- it happens in other contexts as well. By the way, this is just my opinion, so feel free to disagree and to argue to the contrary.
I think in many situations people employ a very short sighted, narrow analysis of "what is in it for me." Do CEOs ever make decisions that will help the bottom line in the next quarter but harm the organization in some longer term perspective? What about layoffs? Are layoffs ever such as to help the current quarterly results but harm in the longer term? This is just one example. I'm sure other examples will come to mind. Often these CEOs are rewarded based on their quarterly results. Good this quarter, bad five years out? No debate how that is going to swing. Are the people who are keeping score looking at such a long term themselves? Probably not.
Back to unions. So, the longer term picture is just not what it is about. What improvement can the union negotiate today, now. When the union leaders are not in the mode of securing new advantages to their membership -- or maybe, securing new accomplishments to parade before the members when next running for union leadership vote -- they are in the mode of holding on zealously to what they have secured by negotiation in the past. Who knows what the future will bring -- five years down the line. What is the best thing for the union membership -- and quite possibly what is best for the union leader, notwithstanding what is best for the membership -- in this quarter? Oh sure, management is belly aching about how the union is driving them into bankruptcy and making them uncompetitive . . . but they always say this. The management has always said this, from day #1. How does union membership or union leadership trust management?
In fact, times do change, circumstances do change. I believe the kind of thinking I have discussed above happens a lot -- and not just in union situations -- and the upshot is that this kind of thinking is NOT good for getting through step-changes in the subject environment, in this case step-changes in the economic landscape.
Now, I'm not a union supporter. I think unions have gone too far and have obtained excessive compensation for their members. I think they have provided the incentives, to some extent, for work to move to more propitious locations -- from pro-union states to right to work states; from the US to foreign venues. Still, it may be useful to think about it from the perspective of union members. Also, they are not just looking at their current relationship with management, today, and their current compensation packages -- I suspect they are looking back many years, and judging the sincerity, honesty, forthcomingness of management not just on current experiences but in the whole context of their history of dealings with management. They have some baggage they are carrying.
Just look at what the unions have done to the auto industry. Detroit had almost 1,000,000 population 10 years age and now has about 750,000 population. Now, just how many of those 250,000 who left Detroit lost their jobs because of union demands? Jim
Just look at what the unions have done to the auto industry. Detroit had almost 1,000,000 population 10 years age and now has about 750,000 population. Now, just how many of those 250,000 who left Detroit lost their jobs because of union demands? Jim
Take a look at the real picture for a moment.. As mousey and a few others have stated a bigger issue with employees being laid off is downsizing while up dating existing equipment and the likes. Also reffered to as remaining competitive. There is quite a few cases where companies have moved abroad for cheaper labor.. But the biggest reason is no environmental laws that can deliver a costly adventure let alone hefty fines being imposed onto them. Safety rules is another big issue with these companies. The comp laws an exc.. All add up to why they have decided to leave this country. So why is it they are not made to play on the same playing field? Yes, they do have the laws on the books but with no enforcement of them.
Actually bernie you are way off on this one. I do feel wallstreet needs to be taken to task though. Theyb are the ones encouraging the companies to move as they hold their purse strings. Unions actually fight to create more jobs though. For as far as benefits go we will try and hold on to all we can. That is nothing any different than what you would want to do, is it?
We all have seen benefits dwindle away for the last few years. Which end up leaving bigger bills at the local hospitals. We have seen 2 tear wage systems that also benefits the companies that employ us. This is not something we would like to see when they in turn hand out large bonuses for what they did to the workers. Also most would have no problem taking some cuts as long as the salaried took the cuts as well. But wait salaried works refuse to take the cuts of their own. Why when they are getting getting so much hire incomes? Because it has to be workers that can only be cut back! Us salaried folks deserve more money.. Sorry but most do not like our atitude when it comes to this stuff.
Another factor that you fail to reconise is the cost of materials to do business in this country. Do not say it is because of union workers either. When a woodsman goes and cuts the trees ( which are non-union ) and ships the trees to a pulp or paper mill/ lumber mill. The costs keep going up all the time. I suppose this must be because of unions as well? Some may like to think that, but supply and demand dictates the prices as well as rising feul costs. One area we have held an edge on though and that is hydro power that the company still owns. It is cheaper than buying electricty as the river continues to flow. This is one area that businesses need to have that continues to go up in costs as well. So blame it all on unions if you must. As always i will disagree with you..
The union lifestyle is one that is foreign to me, but from what I take from Phil and those who live and breath it is this:
You have to bring the corporation to it's knees so you can teach it and any other company who dares to employ you who's boss.
That is my take anyway.
That way you have plenty of time to protest, and plenty of days off to bemoan being laid off frequently.
It's a hard, hard life to being a "working man."
I personally don't have the time for it.
C. Davis
I know some do not like unions period while some of us do. That is your right for you to decide that is for sure. Just as much as it is a constitutional right to organize and that is what unions do. Fortunately they also spread a lot of the wealth around that keep communities going. The small mom and pop shops and gas stations and the like survive off these workers as well. Without them a lot of small communities across the counrtry would die out and fade into the sunset.
All you have to do is go to a small union plant that has been shutdown to help China and other countries abroad. Without the tax base from these companies and local taxes from the workers. There is no way any one can afford to stay there. I can remember when the mill shutdown here used to have only union contstruction workers. The money flew around the local communities constantly for quite some time.
Now with the non-union contractors money only leaves the area. I believe because they lack the same rate of pay. With less dollars being earned means less money to go around or to spend in the area. This brings the economy of the small communties down. Small shops end up closing up and as the communities suffer from the loss. Is this the dream you feel a need to have in order to get the country going? Because it will not happen like this. It can not happen when communities suffer and any chance for growth to shrink that is for sure.
Last edited by Phil from Maine; 04-01-2011 at 03:23 PM.
[quote=Phil from Maine;3793918] The small mom and pop shops and gas stations and the like survive off these workers as well. Without them a lot of small communities across the counrtry would die out and fade into the sunset. really? Like the union thug in WI openly threatening mom and pop shops telling them they better hang a pro-union sign in their window or else. Nice group of folks you hang out with Phil. Remember, unions were never that big in the US and certain
Y aren't big enough to make much of a dent today.
[quote] All you have to do is go to a small union plant that has been shutdown to help China and other countries abroad. Without the tax base from these companies and local taxes from the workers. There is no way any one can afford to stay there. I can remember when the mill shutdown here used to have only union contstruction workers. The money flew around the local communities constantly for quite some time. [quote] FYI, work and jobs has always floated from place to place for thousands of years. Unions didn't invent the small town nor have they made this unique.
Quote:
Now with the non-union contractors money only leaves the area. I believe because they lack the same rate of pay. With less dollars being earned means less money to go around or to spend in the area. This brings the economy of the small communties down. Small shops end up closing up and as the communities suffer from the loss. Is this the dream you feel a need to have in order to get the country going? Because it will not happen like this. It can not happen when communities suffer and any chance for growth to shrink that is for sure.
too funny, we got your other brothers claiming they make less money than their counter parts who are non- union. Now you claim you make more money. I'm getting totally confused now. One thing is for sure, non- union right to work states are thriving and folks are earning more. So I guess your very much wrong when you try and credit anything but shutting down the factories to the unions.
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Ronald Reagan: 'Everybody that is for abortion has already been born'
"I never said I was worth it. I only said I wouldn't do it for less " William F. Buckley Jr.
Quick question.
