In a discussion that derailed a different thread the topic turned to manufacturing and outsourcing. I thought it was worthy of its own thread and discussion.
Productivity growth accelerated in the mid 90’s. However manufacturing employment began a steady decline in the 90’s (or probably before then), and sped to a dramatic rate after 2000. Manufacturing employment was around 20-24% lower in 2005 than it was in the late 90’s. Depending upon which study is referenced, that’s between 4 and 5 million jobs and some 35,000 less factories. Why? Among other things, outsourcing and offshoring.
Some studies show that manufacturing and productivity has increased by around 4% every decade. This simply isn’t true and that 4% statistic is not accurate. The main problem with statistics is how they are interpreted, or more importantly, how they are not. What throws many stats in a deceptive whirl are the way productivity is measured, or not measured, specifically how outsourcing and offshoring are not accurately measured thus inflating the actual growth rate. Some people celebrate this rise in productivity without really looking at the numbers or the situation.
You have to bring the wages and quality of living into this discussion as well since this topic directly plays into wages. You would think that if productivity is increasing than wages and quality of living would as well, but that is not the case. In fact outsourcing/offshoring is in part directly responsible for why there is a downward pressure on wages.
Large U.S. corporations are demanding suppliers to increase outsourcing/offshoring. These companies employ people that do nothing but figure out ways to outsource.
What is the main problem with all of this and ultimately the bottom line? People in this country have readily, arms-open-wide, and even excitedly accepted a deal that will inevitably lead to destruction – their own destruction. China is saying to the average U.S. consumer: Tell you what, you give me your dollars for this cheaper product and we in turn will deflate your currency, dump your worthless notes and crush your economy and your lifestyle ultimately enslaving you. Here, stick your head in this bear trap, it’ll hurt and probably kill you. “OK”.
It isn’t exclusive to China either.
So is outsourcing/offshoring real? Is it an issue in this country?
__________________
We were made by God and for God, and until you figure that out, life isn't going to make sense.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a civilization, it expects what never was and what never will be.
Some studies show that manufacturing and productivity has increased by around 4% every decade. This simply isn’t true and that 4% statistic is not accurate. The main problem with statistics is how they are interpreted, or more importantly, how they are not. What throws many stats in a deceptive whirl are the way productivity is measured, or not measured, specifically how outsourcing and offshoring are not accurately measured thus inflating the actual growth rate. Some people celebrate this rise in productivity without really looking at the numbers or the situation.
Bob, why don't you produce facts to back up this statement? I have yet to read a single article supporting the sound bites of the left regarding off shoring. Furthermore, without productivity gains, you don't have rising wages. So tell me which you would rather have?
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John Adams “The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence.”
Ronald Reagan: 'Everybody that is for abortion has already been born'
"I never said I was worth it. I only said I wouldn't do it for less " William F. Buckley Jr.
__________________
John Adams “The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence.”
Ronald Reagan: 'Everybody that is for abortion has already been born'
"I never said I was worth it. I only said I wouldn't do it for less " William F. Buckley Jr.
Bob, why don't you produce facts to back up this statement? I have yet to read a single article supporting the sound bites of the left regarding off shoring.
At the bottom of this page there are four links to PDF articles that brim with information replete with footnotes and plenty of backup.
There's plenty more out there and I can dig through old bookmarks if it'll help, but this should get you started. Not that these articles are the end-all to this debate, they simply open up the debate with a look at more than just face-value statistics.
Quote:
Furthermore, without productivity gains, you don't have rising wages. So tell me which you would rather have?
You are not getting it. Productivity gains, yes. Wage depression, yes. Wage gain? No. Thus the point of inaccurate statistics.
__________________
We were made by God and for God, and until you figure that out, life isn't going to make sense.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a civilization, it expects what never was and what never will be.
And therein lies the problem with those statistics. They are inaccurate. I take very little in this life for "what it seems to be so it must be true", especially if it comes from our government. You have to read between the lines.
__________________
We were made by God and for God, and until you figure that out, life isn't going to make sense.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a civilization, it expects what never was and what never will be.
These articles back up the very information I posted, Bob. The last one is the odd man out so on the face of it, it has to be discounted. Right off the bat it's from a local region experiencing major downturn due to both government and union forces. Also, a region loosing the battle against other states that are attracting away their bisnesses.
Furthermore, wages have risen in this country. We have had an up tick in people moving from lower class levels into the upper class levels. This study has been going on for decades measuring a decade at a time and taking into account domestic issues.
Income mobility of individuals was considerable in the U.S. economy during the 1996 through 2005 period with roughly half of taxpayers who began in the bottom quintile moving up to a higher income group within 10 years.
About 55 percent of taxpayers moved to a different income quintile within 10 years.
Among those with the very highest incomes in 1996--the top 1/100 of one percent--only 25 percent remained in the group in 2005. Moreover, the median real income of these taxpayers declined over the study period.
The degree of mobility among income groups is unchanged from the prior decade (1987 through 1996).
Economic growth resulted in rising incomes for most taxpayers over the study period:
Median real incomes of all taxpayers increased by 24 percent after adjusting for inflation;
Real incomes of two-thirds of all taxpayers increased over this period; and
Median incomes of those initially in the lower income groups increased more than the median incomes of those initially in the high income groups.
__________________
John Adams “The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence.”
Ronald Reagan: 'Everybody that is for abortion has already been born'
"I never said I was worth it. I only said I wouldn't do it for less " William F. Buckley Jr.
What is the main problem with all of this and ultimately the bottom line? People in this country have readily, arms-open-wide, and even excitedly accepted a deal that will inevitably lead to destruction – their own destruction. China is saying to the average U.S. consumer: Tell you what, you give me your dollars for this cheaper product and we in turn will deflate your currency, dump your worthless notes and crush your economy and your lifestyle ultimately enslaving you. Here, stick your head in this bear trap, it’ll hurt and probably kill you. “OK”.
What badshotbob said. It will be increasingly harder to overcome each future recession because our manufacturing base is badly eroded.
Make no mistake about it; China is still very much run by dedicated communists. We are paying for our own destruction at the hands of the Chinese communist army. China has announced that it owns most of the South China Sea. In a few years China will invade one or two of its neighbors: We will not be able to do anything about it because the US has become impotent.
Furthermore bob, all this change in manufacturing has been good for America. I didn't get my first PC until i was around 10 years old. It lasted for years and as far as I know it's still over at my sister's house knowing how cheap they are. It was a Commadore 64. I didn't get a PC in my own house until I was 22 years old and I remember exchanging phone work at a PC manufacturer to get it.
Today, I can look back and know I have gone thru multiple PCs, gaming machines, TVs and DVD players, VCR's, and cell phones. I can surf the WEB just about anywhere including 7 +/- miles above the earth. This is just a fraction of things I have now but never had growing up. We can talk about cars, tractors gtadgets, toys bike etc. The best thing is that I'm not abnormal with all this crap. Most every house hold has these gadgets even those on welfare.
Bottom line, I look at all these sound bites and whining from our politicians as excuses for them to control more of our lives when that's the very problem we face. We have a drywall manufacturing relocating to Mexico due to silly enviromental laws. We have the Pres just with the stroke of his pen put crippling regulations on the auto industry thru silly notion of CAFE standards. They claim it's to save gas, yet never has that ever proven to work. We have a pres that crippled our oil industry due to one accident. This was clearly an attack on industry that he didn't like and had nothing to due with safety because he turned around and funded drilling in the same body of water only in another country.
The last thing I have to ask. You seem to be really concerned about cheaper products on the shelves for customers to choose from. How will it help you as an individual if what you walk into the store to buy tomorrow costs 10, 20 or even 30% more?
__________________
John Adams “The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence.”
Ronald Reagan: 'Everybody that is for abortion has already been born'
"I never said I was worth it. I only said I wouldn't do it for less " William F. Buckley Jr.
What is the main problem with all of this and ultimately the bottom line? People in this country have readily, arms-open-wide, and even excitedly accepted a deal that will inevitably lead to destruction – their own destruction. China is saying to the average U.S. consumer: Tell you what, you give me your dollars for this cheaper product and we in turn will deflate your currency, dump your worthless notes and crush your economy and your lifestyle ultimately enslaving you. Here, stick your head in this bear trap, it’ll hurt and probably kill you. “OK”.
Total BS. Please explain to me who gets the better deal? We the consumer who in exchange for paper with ink printed on it take possession of a material good like a TV set.
Don't confuse your government borrowing for social programs and the choice of purchase. Those are 2 seperate items!
__________________
John Adams “The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence.”
Ronald Reagan: 'Everybody that is for abortion has already been born'
"I never said I was worth it. I only said I wouldn't do it for less " William F. Buckley Jr.
Outsourcing/offshoring... Good? Bad? Destroying us?
