Actual Facts about the "Ground Zero Mosque"

[Sylvan]

Originally Posted by CalHunter

Our problem isn't with a regular Muslim or Islamist.

It isn't? I'd like to believe that but I have some pretty strong reservations. It seems the religion as a whole maintains the phiosophy that ultimately the entire
world should be governed by a Muslim theocracy. The koran and hadeeth make that clear enough. That is a threat to our
way of life no different than the threat of any other evil totalitarian philosophy, even if your "regular" Muslim isn't
vocal about it. It's rare for any Muslims to vocally deny such a philosophy and their silece in this regard is
deafening.

Originally Posted by CalHunter

We do (and should) reserve the right to defend our citizens and military troops. What we do not (and should not) do is try to exterminate an entire race or religion simply because we disagree with their religious beliefs.

And when their reigious belief is that our way of life should be destroyed through force if necessary then what should
our stance be? What it has been is to pretend it isn't so--to pretend Islam is benign. It is not--imo, it is a cancer
that if unchecked has the potential to destoy all of western civilisation.

Originally Posted by CalHunter

Otherwise, we are in for one heck of a fight with several billion Muslims throughout the world.

That indeed may be the reality. Many Muslims are looking forward to it and hope to bring it on in order to hasten Islams
world domination. Just listen to Ahmadinejad. He makes no bones about it at all--in fact boasts about it.

No one has a problem condemning governments or political movements for expantionist totalitarian ideology but when the
same kind of threatening philosophy is cloaked in religion it somehow is given special protection. Well if it walks
and talks like a duck, its a duck and imo should be treated as such.

[CalHunter]

I understand your points and am also concerned about it. However, what are we supposed to do with Muslims who say they don't accept or believe the violent parts of Islam and, more importantly, don't commit violence? Do we make a preemptive strike on a billion or so Muslims? How do we justify that? I agree that there are legitimate security and safety issues. I'm just not sure that there is a simple answer for them.

[Sylvan]

Originally Posted by CalHunter

I understand your points and am also concerned about it. However, what are we supposed to do
with Muslims who say they don't accept or believe the violent parts of Islam and, more importantly, don't commit
violence? Do we make a preemptive strike on a billion or so Muslims? How do we justify that? I agree that there are
legitimate security and safety issues. I'm just not sure that there is a simple answer for them.

There are no simple answers but something we can do is to recognize the fact that the problem is the Muslim religion.
Not just some tiny extremest faction of it either. The following is quite sobering...

A German's View on Islam

A man, whose family was German aristocracy prior to World War II,
owned a number of large industries and estates. When asked how many German
people were true Nazis, the answer he gave can guide our attitude toward
fanaticism.
'Very few people were true Nazis,' he said, 'but many enjoyed the
return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care. I was one of
those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So, the majority just
sat back and let it all happen. Then, before we knew it, they owned us, and we
had lost control, and the end of the world had come. My family lost
everything. I ended up in a concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my
factories.'
We are told again and again by 'experts' and 'talking heads' that
Islam is the religion of peace and that the vast majority of Muslims just want
to live in peace. Although this unqualified assertion may be true, it is
entirely irrelevant. It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel better,
and meant to somehow diminish the spectre of fanatics rampaging across the
globe in the name of Islam.
The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history.
It is the fanatics who march. It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50
shooting wars worldwide. It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter
Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the
entire continent in an Islamic wave. It is the fanatics who bomb, behead,
murder, or honor-kill. It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque.
It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims
and homosexuals. It is the fanatics who teach their young to kill and to
become suicide bombers.
The hard, quantifiable fact is that the peaceful majority,
the 'silent majority,' is cowed and extraneous.
Communist Russia was comprised of Russians who just wanted to live in
peace, yet the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of about 20
million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant. China's huge
population was peaceful as well, but Chinese Communists managed to kill a
staggering 70 million people.
The average ***anese individual prior to World War II was not a
warmongering sadist. Yet, ***an murdered and slaughtered its way across South
East Asia in an orgy of killing that included the systematic murder of 12
million Chinese civilians; most killed by sword, shovel, and bayonet.
And who can forget Rwanda, which collapsed into butchery. Could it
not be said that the majority of Rwandans were 'peace loving'?
History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt, yet for all
our powers of reason, we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points:
Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence.
Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don't speak up,
because like my friend from Germany, they will awaken one day and find that the
fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun.
Peace-loving Germans, ***anese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Serbs,
Afghans, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians, and many others
have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it was too
late. As for us who watch it all unfold, we must pay attention to the only
group that counts--the fanatics who threaten our way of life.
Lastly, anyone who doubts that the issue is serious and just deletes
this email without sending it on, is contributing to the passiveness that
allows the problems to expand. So, extend yourself a bit and send this on and
on and on! Let us hope that thousands, world-wide, read this and think about
it, and send it on - before it's too late.

[bergall]

Ok....I'm convinced....we need to exterminate all the muslims. We cannot allow them to infest the world and turn it into a vast roach-hotel. It would be a simple enough thing to do...round up and liquidate any muslims who show up at any mosque in the country, neutron bomb Indonesia (are they ALL muslims there ?) the Philippines (how many of those are Muslims ?), 90% of the middle east...how do we eradicate this pestilence ? DO we actually care about the 'collateral damage' that would assuredly be incurred ? Is our safety more important than the lives of more than 1 billion other human beings we happen to disagree with on a fundamental point of order ?

But I have 1 question: HOw do we protect the rights of those muslims in the United States who say they are American citizens ? Do we abrogate their rights as citizens and kill them and seize their assets ? What provision in U.S. law would permit this ? If it's possible for Muslims, it's possible for say, blacks, mexicans, fundamentalist Christians, Gays, liberals, University professors, newspaper editorialists, Tea Party members, NRA members, everyone at MSNBC and the New York Times, and any group with whom the current regime does not agree with....it's a slippery slope you are standing on.

This is the basic conflict I have, between that God-commanded respect for human life, and defending ourselves against this menace and becoming the biggest mass-murderers in human history....worse than Hitler, Mao, Idi Amin, Stalin, baby Doc COMBINED and ten times over.
Do we want that for ourselves ?

[Sylvan]

Originally Posted by bergall

But I have 1 question: HOw do we protect the rights of those muslims in the United States who say they are American citizens ? Do we abrogate their rights as citizens and kill them and seize their assets ? What provision in U.S. law would permit this ? If it's possible for Muslims, it's possible for say, blacks, mexicans, fundamentalist Christians, Gays, liberals, University professors, newspaper editorialists, Tea Party members, NRA members, everyone at MSNBC and the New York Times, and any group with whom the current regime does not agree with....it's a slippery slope you are standing on.

This has absolutely nothing to do with people that simply don't agree with our way of life and it ends there, it has to do with people who fundamentally believe that our way of life should be destroyed and that our form of government should be replaced by a theocracy. ANYONE who holds such a belief should not be able to hide under the cloak of religion. Muslims do exactly that and we sit back and allow it. It is reasonable and logical to be more suspicious of muslims entering our country than just about any other group yet we pretend that's not the case and conduct only random questioning of people at airports. It is reasonable and logical to be more suspicious of what goes on in mosques in our country than other religious institutions but we pretend that's not the case. I would have no problem with agents infiltrating mosques for the purpose of determining if there is any advocating or fomenting for the overthrow of our government and should it be found, the mosque should be shut down and those reponsible tried for treason.


For heavens sake, there are many things that can be done short of laying waste to all muslim countries and executing all muslims here in the U.S. and its just hyperbole to make such insane suggestions. Again a good first step would be to just recognize the obvious fact that its not Christians, or Seeks or Bhudists or whatever religion you want to mention--the problem is with the Muslims religion.

[bergall]

Originally Posted by Sylvan

This has absolutely nothing to do with people that simply don't agree with our way of life and it ends there, it has to do with people who fundamentally believe that our way of life should be destroyed and that our form of government should be replaced by a theocracy. ANYONE who holds such a belief should not be able to hide under the cloak of religion. Muslims do exactly that and we sit back and allow it. It is reasonable and logical to be more suspicious of muslims entering our country than just about any other group yet we pretend that's not the case and conduct only random questioning of people at airports. It is reasonable and logical to be more suspicious of what goes on in mosques in our country than other religious institutions but we pretend that's not the case. I would have no problem with agents infiltrating mosques for the purpose of determining if there is any advocating or fomenting for the overthrow of our government and should it be found, the mosque should be shut down and those reponsible tried for treason.


For heavens sake, there are many things that can be done short of laying waste to all muslim countries and executing all muslims here in the U.S. and its just hyperbole to make such insane suggestions. Again a good first step would be to just recognize the obvious fact that its not Christians, or Seeks or Bhudists or whatever religion you want to mention--the problem is with the Muslims religion.

Look...we are pretty much on the same page here. While I believe that 'laying waste' to the muslim world might not be such a bad thing (in the grand scheme of thngs), we are not going to do that. Our history is too replete with this sort of horror and as Americans we would refuse to participate in genocide even if it includes our own survival as a nation.

Be that as it may, the enemy is in the gates, so to speak. I can understand that we need to verbalize and recognize the danger this religion poses. My point, in a roundabout way, is that I am at a loss on how to guarantee the rights and freedoms of muslim Americans while protecting ourselves from muslim Americans.
Realistically, what are the options we have in dealing with a group who has sworn their lives to our destruction, who will not be bargained with in good faith, who will not be swayed by the 'can't we all just get along' idea....how do you live with that ? What measures must we take as a nation to secure ourselves ? I mean without abrogating constitutional rights for a portion of our citizenry ?

[sachiko]

Sylvan has pretty well expressed my own concerns. I don't see it as a problem that the Islamic religion has, as a goal, the conversion of the entire world. After all, that is, officially, the goal of Christianity as well.

In fact Christians at one time seemed to hold the belief that it was appropriate to convert the world by force. Most of us Christians have abandoned that idea. Our problem is that Islamists still seem to believe it's appropriate to convert us all by force. While I'll admit that most Muslims are not highly motivated to convert us, there is a very highly motivated group that is. And it's not easy to dismiss the support for this group from the rank and file Muslims. Witness the public jubilation in that Muslim community near Detroit on 9/11.

So what do we do? Should we intern all Muslims they way those of ***anese descent were interned during WWII? No, that's a bad idea. But it might be appropriate to exercise a higher degree of suspicion with regard to people of Middle East descent. And I also think it would be fair to ask those same people to be understanding of our suspicions, given the expressions of hate directed towards our country by some factions of Islam along with the avowed intent to destroy us.

Guilt by association? Well yes, but perhaps those Muslims not bent on destroying us might become more vocal and tell the extremists to shut up already.

[bergall]

Originally Posted by daddyslittlegirl

Sylvan has pretty well expressed my own concerns. I don't see it as a problem that the Islamic religion has, as a goal, the conversion of the entire world. After all, that is, officially, the goal of Christianity as well.

In fact Christians at one time seemed to hold the belief that it was appropriate to convert the world by force. Most of us Christians have abandoned that idea. Our problem is that Islamists still seem to believe it's appropriate to convert us all by force. While I'll admit that most Muslims are not highly motivated to convert us, there is a very highly motivated group that is. And it's not easy to dismiss the support for this group from the rank and file Muslims. Witness the public jubilation in that Muslim community near Detroit on 9/11.

So what do we do? Should we intern all Muslims they way those of ***anese descent were interned during WWII? No, that's a bad idea. But it might be appropriate to exercise a higher degree of suspicion with regard to people of Middle East descent. And I also think it would be fair to ask those same people to be understanding of our suspicions, given the expressions of hate directed towards our country by some factions of Islam along with the avowed intent to destroy us.

Guilt by association? Well yes, but perhaps those Muslims not bent on destroying us might become more vocal and tell the extremists to shut up already.

Oh....like Americans of ***anese descent in the 1940's ?

nope....not a solution. How about the 'department of homeland security' stops all immigration from Islamist countries ?
How about the immediate cessation of work, student and resident visas for people coming from islamist countries or who demonstrate some sort of islamic heritage ? How about we force all Muslims to register with the goverment ? We can investigate each one of them and by so doing, 'find' who the scumbags are and leave the good ones alone.

Fact is, nobody'd sit still for any of that. There is no way without an abrogation of individual civil rights.

[Sylvan]

Originally Posted by bergall

Realistically, what are the options we have in dealing with a group who has sworn their lives to our destruction, who will not be bargained with in good faith, who will not be swayed by the 'can't we all just get along' idea....how do you live with that ? What measures must we take as a nation to secure ourselves ? I mean without abrogating constitutional rights for a portion of our citizenry ?

You don't bargain with a group "who has sworn their lives to our destruction"--and lets be clear, they DON'T have a right to do that! They can believe whatever they want but to advocate for the overthrow of our government whether you actually plan it yourself or encourage others to plan it is a capital crime. Constitutionaly we don't have to wait for an actual act of violence to prosecute.

No citizens rights are abrogated by investigating their activities based on reasonable suspicion and as far as I'm concerned based on the evidence it reasonable to be more suspicious of seditious fomenting to occur among Muslims than just about any other group. We have no problem investigating those with ties to white supremist organizations even if they have no history of violence. Just the fact that they're associated with such a shady group is enough. Why should muslims be given a pass? Sure most muslims don't commit terrorist acts but most white supremists don't either--that fact is not relevant. You don't look for rotten apples in a barrel of potatoes.

[bergall]

Originally Posted by Sylvan

You don't bargain with a group "who has sworn their lives to our destruction"--and lets be clear, they DON'T have a right to do that! They can believe whatever they want but to advocate for the overthrow of our government whether you actually plan it yourself or encourage others to plan it is a capital crime. Constitutionaly we don't have to wait for an actual act of violence to prosecute.

No citizens rights are abrogated by investigating their activities based on reasonable suspicion and as far as I'm concerned based on the evidence it reasonable to be more suspicious of seditious fomenting to occur among Muslims than just about any other group. We have no problem investigating those with ties to white supremist organizations even if they have no history of violence. Just the fact that they're associated with such a shady group is enough. Why should muslims be given a pass? Sure most muslims don't commit terrorist acts but most white supremists don't either--that fact is not relevant. You don't look for rotten apples in a barrel of potatoes.

Woo hoo those lefty scumbags are gonna scream at you ! HEE HEE ! THat's ok...we ARE on the same page, and I WOULD go so far as to investigate all of 'em and their right to privacy be damned. I'd make me prove they're not a threat, rather than assume they're all 'benign' and then wait for something to happen.

Potatoes come in bags, by the way...hehehehehehehheehe