Folks, bigbulls and I are having a delightful, lively conversation about crossbows legalization. I argue if its not about tradition, make it a season of choice. Every hunter can buy his tags, and use whatever he wants.
He claims that that would be anti-capitalism and pro unemployment. I argue having a gov. controlled beaucracy that basically forces folks to buy more and more sporting equipment for various seasons is the complete opposite.
here is his response. Please let me know your opinion on the matter. Capitalism or more goverment crap running our lives? You be the judge.
Quote from bigbulls
If every state, or even just a few states, went to an anything goes season and the population is forced to make the decision to use a bow or rifle in an anything goes season I bet most hunters would opt to use their rifles for the obvious reasons.
If people aren't spending money on archery equipment the archery stores aren't making money and aren't paying taxes.
If the stores aren't selling it they will down size to maintain a profit and may eventually close up shop all together.
If stores close up shop people become unemployed and the state will pay unemployment benefits. This is called an expense.
If the stores aren't selling it then the manufacturers aren't manufacturing it. Less taxes paid to neighboring states.
If the manufacturers aren't manufacturing it they too will downsize and more people will be unempoloyed. Another state expense.
If the manufacturers aren't producing as much then they are ordering less raw materials.
It's a long trickle up cycle.
The offsetting of the additional gun hunters (most are already gun hunting any way) that you are going to argue, that will be buying more guns and ammo won't be enough to keep many of the family owned archery shops in business.
I didn't know that you were so anti-capitalist and so pro-unemployed.
I don't know why we need another thread but I'm game.
How do you think that the states get revenue for things like wildlife management, habitat management, road maintenance, police departments, fire departments, road crews, etc... etc... etc... There has to be some government and some taxes paid to the government. That's how this country is set up to run. The more people spend, the more business expand, the more business expand the more people they need to employ, the more people that are employed the more people there are to spend money, the more taxes are paid to the state.
It is only by individual people spending money that keeps businesses running, which keeps manufacturing running, etc... etc... all of which creates revenue and part of that revenue is paid to the state as taxes. These taxes pay for the things I listed above and many many more. Not all of which I agree with.
Who is forcing anyone to buy anything?
Who is forcing anyone to participate in any hunting season?
People can choose to buy or not to buy.
They can choose to hunt or not to hunt.
BTW, to put it into context. By "season of choice" BC is advocating instead of crossbows being legal during archery season why not the various states just have a single "anything goes" season.
My position is that if that multiple states went to a single "anything goes" season it would greatly hurt the archery industry in those states as most people would opt to use a firearm instead of archery equipment and be a big economic trickle up effect that would decrease the states overall revenue and cause many small archery shops, manufacturers, etc... to downsize or close, etc... etc...
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Ranger77 said: I can respect that, but from a G&F point of view, they have to maximize the resources for their paying sportsman ....... and allowing crossbows generates more people hunting and more revenue with minimal impacts - that's why they're allowing them, that's why they allowed compounds and its why the technology keeps being allowed too
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bigcountry said:
couldn't that be done with a season of choice. Use whatever weapon you want? They do this in parts of canada I hunt. Some guys use compounds, some use flinters, some use 300ultramags. Whatever floats your boat. Each person pays for tags, and fill em as they see fit.
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bigbulls said:
Bet they would actually loose revenue if they implemented that. I'd take that bet any day.
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bigcountry said:
I am all for smaller goverment and giving less to those crooks.
So its about keeping the revenue streams going to the state? I know newfoundland didn't see a drop in revenue, but actually saw an increase by attracting more US hunters with the enticement of gun hunting.
How would they lose? Would you stop hunting? I know I wouldn't. Might hunt harder. Why do you need the goverment to tell you what weapon to use and when to use it. Can you not make up your own mind?
Are you not always preaching, you don't need the goverment to control your life? I bet it would definately hurt bow sales.
Would anyone on this thread quit hunting? Anyone?
Talk about a 180 on your position. I completely agree and list reasons why but you're arguing with me agreeing with you. You sure are a confusing person to talk to.
__________________
"The danger to America is not Barack Obama but a citizenry capable of entrusting a man like him with the Presidency........... Blaming the prince of the fools should not blind anyone to the vast confederacy of fools that made him their prince. The Republic can survive a Barack Obama, who is, after all, merely a fool. It is less likely to survive a multitude of fools such as those who made him their president."
No, we don't need to hear from you, we need to hear from someone else. Free markets, free enterprises and capitalism is totally different.
Your advocating big goverment beurocracy, which I am totally agrainst. I am a conservative.
Your advocating a goverment run entity to set rules and run your life. Also against.
This thread isn't about arrowguns, its about politics. Duh.
I see where you are going, encouraging people to spend thier hard earned money and go in debt deeper with the hidden prize of consumer bliss on the other side. But goverment ran encouragement is much like oblama stimulus plan is it not?
Last edited by bigcountry; 07-21-2010 at 05:49 AM.
there's something to be said for both lines of thought.
On the one hand, with an 'open, anything goes' season:
1: archery hunting decreases will result in an initial hike in archery accoutrement,
followed by the failure of some archery pro shops.
2: Those choosing to abandon other implements will hurt that industry.
I don't see it this way....a lot of archery shops stay in business because there are hard-core bow/arrow hunters who will not chooose a firearm. There are archery target leagues where non-hunters engage on a weekly basis and mostly, MOST of them do not hunt. If you like rifle, muzzleloader or crossbow, then you can pick up your implement of choice and have at it.
I am a proponent of 'each weapon in it's own season'. Makes things real simple, plus
state game departments are supported by the fees for each TYPE of hunting license.
In New Jersey, they take it one step further...you pay $28 bucks (or about) for a 'firearms license' which allows you 1 antlered deer. There's one for Archery, there's one for Shotgun, there's one for Muzzleloader. But it gets better because you cannot take an antlered deer on your 'big game' or archery or muzzleloader license until you take a doe (antlerless/female deer). You cannot take a doe without a special zone permit. Each zone you plan to hunt is separate, and your permit costs $28 so you're actually paying about $56 to hunt big-game with a shotgun, $56 to hunt with bow/arrow and $56 to hunt with Muzzleloader. It's a racket but there's more deer here than you can shake a stick at but if you plan on hunting multiple 'zones' it can get expensive in a hurry...the state game dept must be rolling in dough....I wonder if the Game Warden drives around in a Lincoln...hehehheeh
But because I condone a open season weapon of choice, does that make me anticapitalist and pro-unemployment?
This is more of a question of does bigbulls point of view reflect a capitalist. In my opinion, BB's opinion is more socialist. Mine is more libertarian. It reminds me of a the stimulus package.
I am never for a goverment run beurocracy that encourages spending as BB has suggested. I am for free enterprise without goverment intervention.
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Originally Posted by bergall
there's something to be said for both lines of thought.
On the one hand, with an 'open, anything goes' season:
1: archery hunting decreases will result in an initial hike in archery accoutrement,
followed by the failure of some archery pro shops.
2: Those choosing to abandon other implements will hurt that industry.
I don't see it this way....a lot of archery shops stay in business because there are hard-core bow/arrow hunters who will not chooose a firearm. There are archery target leagues where non-hunters engage on a weekly basis and mostly, MOST of them do not hunt. If you like rifle, muzzleloader or crossbow, then you can pick up your implement of choice and have at it.
I am a proponent of 'each weapon in it's own season'. Makes things real simple, plus
state game departments are supported by the fees for each TYPE of hunting license.
In New Jersey, they take it one step further...you pay $28 bucks (or about) for a 'firearms license' which allows you 1 antlered deer. There's one for Archery, there's one for Shotgun, there's one for Muzzleloader. But it gets better because you cannot take an antlered deer on your 'big game' or archery or muzzleloader license until you take a doe (antlerless/female deer). You cannot take a doe without a special zone permit. Each zone you plan to hunt is separate, and your permit costs $28 so you're actually paying about $56 to hunt big-game with a shotgun, $56 to hunt with bow/arrow and $56 to hunt with Muzzleloader. It's a racket but there's more deer here than you can shake a stick at but if you plan on hunting multiple 'zones' it can get expensive in a hurry...the state game dept must be rolling in dough....I wonder if the Game Warden drives around in a Lincoln...hehehheeh
No, we don't need to hear from you, we need to hear from someone else.
Wow, that line is very reminiscent of a recent Obama speech.
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In my opinion, BB's opinion is more socialist.
Hate to break it to you but that's the way the free market system works. People run business, work, and pay taxes. Taxes are the states income or revenue.
There are some hard core bow only hunters out there that would definitely continue to use a bow but the vast majority of hunters out there aren't in it for the "art" of archery. They do it simply to hunt. If you essentially and instantly remove bow season then you will effectively remove 80% of the current bow hunters out there. Remove 80% of the current bow hunters and you will loose the small business that make thier living from those bow hunters. And then the trickle up effect posted in red starts.
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I am never for a goverment run beurocracy that encourages spending as BB has suggested.
Don't get so worked up about it. It was just a shot at your expense.
__________________
"The danger to America is not Barack Obama but a citizenry capable of entrusting a man like him with the Presidency........... Blaming the prince of the fools should not blind anyone to the vast confederacy of fools that made him their prince. The Republic can survive a Barack Obama, who is, after all, merely a fool. It is less likely to survive a multitude of fools such as those who made him their president."
Wow, that line is very reminiscent of a recent Obama speech.
Hate to break it to you but that's the way the free market system works. People run business, work, and pay taxes. Taxes are the states income or revenue.
Very true, but not at the direction of the goverment. Not encourageing (with tax payers money) people to spend. People spend on thier own rathers. In other words, a town might grow, and need a blacksmith back in the day. Something would fill that void. But a goverment making a directive for that town to have a blacksmith is not freemarket capitalistic.
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There are some hard core bow only hunters out there that would definitely continue to use a bow but the vast majority of hunters out there aren't in it for the "art" of archery. They do it simply to hunt. If you essentially and instantly remove bow season then you will effectively remove 80% of the current bow hunters out there. Remove 80% of the current bow hunters and you will loose the small business that make thier living from those bow hunters. And then the trickle up effect posted in red starts
But gunsmiths might make more money. Your not telling the whole story.
No worked up here. Interesting conversation. Maybe your projecting?
Do you like the goverment stranglehold we have? Are you satisfied? Are you happy with how your taxes are spent?
Gee....I did not think to politicize the two points....I would say they're both capitalist in nature as they both allow for whatever one wants to do, with whichever implement they choose. The 'open season' version is probably a libertarian view, given the greatest amount of choice with least amount of regulation, allowing a hunter the liberty to choose what to hunt, when and with what.
The multi-season choice can be...oh the shame of it....a big government liberal scheme to control every facet of the sport and realize the most in tax revenues and fees as a result of the hierarchy and 'administration' of the sport.
Is one more capitalist than the other ? Dunno....maybe the 'libbo' version because it supports separate licenses, permits, purchase of entire sets of equipment and regulations. All those take advantage of a 'customer's desire to possess' and his willingness to hand over money, which is pure capitalist thought. IMO of course.
Gee....I did not think to politicize the two points....I would say they're both capitalist in nature as they both allow for whatever one wants to do, with whichever implement they choose. The 'open season' version is probably a libertarian view, given the greatest amount of choice with least amount of regulation, allowing a hunter the liberty to choose what to hunt, when and with what.
The multi-season choice can be...oh the shame of it....a big government liberal scheme to control every facet of the sport and realize the most in tax revenues and fees as a result of the hierarchy and 'administration' of the sport.
Is one more capitalist than the other ? Dunno....maybe the 'libbo' version because it supports separate licenses, permits, purchase of entire sets of equipment and regulations. All those take advantage of a 'customer's desire to possess' and his willingness to hand over money, which is pure capitalist thought. IMO of course.
Thanks for the reply. But you know where I am going with this?
Wasn't that what the stimulus money was all about, that you and I will be paying for, for decades to come?
Now, I see some DNR's doing a good job. But DNR is a goverment entity. And we all know they have the nasty habit of growing out of control. For instance, I feel Colorado's DNR has turned into big business and goverment.
But gunsmiths might make more money. Your not telling the whole story.
Yeah, you should try it some time. How many archery shops do you know that also employ a gunsmith?
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Wasn't that what the stimulus money was all about, that you and I will be paying for, for decades to come?
Please elaborate. Because I see the stimulus as money borrowed and/or stolen from the tax payer and redistributed to crooked companies that were "too big to fail" as well as being wasted on pet political projects. I don't see the correlation between the stimulus bill and people choosing to spend their earned money at archery shops. Provided they can survive in an "anything goes" hunting season.
Do the states not have the right to manage their natural resources within their borders? I believe that they do.
__________________
"The danger to America is not Barack Obama but a citizenry capable of entrusting a man like him with the Presidency........... Blaming the prince of the fools should not blind anyone to the vast confederacy of fools that made him their prince. The Republic can survive a Barack Obama, who is, after all, merely a fool. It is less likely to survive a multitude of fools such as those who made him their president."
Capitalism and Free Markets
