WASHINGTON — In the chaos of an early morning assault on a remote U.S. outpost in eastern Afghanistan, Staff Sgt. Erich Phillips' M4 carbine quit firing as militant forces surrounded the base. The machine gun he grabbed after tossing the rifle aside didn't work either.
When the battle in the small village of Wanat ended, nine U.S. soldiers lay dead and 27 more were wounded. A detailed study of the attack by a military historian found that weapons failed repeatedly at a "critical moment" during the firefight on July 13, 2008, putting the outnumbered American troops at risk of being overrun by nearly 200 insurgents.
...ok they are just reporting this now>?
...why are these guns still being used?
...good soldiers knew of this early on yet nothing was done?
WASHINGTON — In the chaos of an early morning assault on a remote U.S. outpost in eastern Afghanistan, Staff Sgt. Erich Phillips' M4 carbine quit firing as militant forces surrounded the base. The machine gun he grabbed after tossing the rifle aside didn't work either.
When the battle in the small village of Wanat ended, nine U.S. soldiers lay dead and 27 more were wounded. A detailed study of the attack by a military historian found that weapons failed repeatedly at a "critical moment" during the firefight on July 13, 2008, putting the outnumbered American troops at risk of being overrun by nearly 200 insurgents.
...ok they are just reporting this now>?
...why are these guns still being used?
...good soldiers knew of this early on yet nothing was done?
Old news man. Where you been? Anyone that has owned an A1 or A3 for that matter, just wonders how in the world we can do battle with it. Whats scary is the culprit is usually crappy mags. I know for me, I buy H&K AR mags. Never a failure. Sure, they are over 40-60/piece, but well worth it. I myself won't have anymore goverment issue 30rounders anymore.
It just boggles my mind we still force our forces to use gas operated guns. Lots of better alternatives with the gas piston guns out there. I love my sig..
Last edited by bigcountry; 10-11-2009 at 10:22 AM.
One of the greatest challenges I had in Iraq was convincing my guys that their time was better spent maintaining their rifles and machineguns (not to mention our trucks) than it was looking for a computer terminal to e-mail from, playing with their GameBoy, or watching pirated DVDs.
"Headspace and timing?" I once heard a puzzled M2 gunner ask. Dreadful, but not nearly as alarming as the number of GIs I ran into who'd never torn down any of their rifle or pistol magazines for inspection and cleaning.
While on the surface it might appear that our weapons are failing us, it might bear some perspective to recognize that we're sometimes not as proficient with the tools of our trade as you might expect us to be.
One of the greatest challenges I had in Iraq was convincing my guys that their time was better spent maintaining their rifles and machineguns (not to mention our trucks) than it was looking for a computer terminal to e-mail from, playing with their GameBoy, or watching pirated DVDs.
"Headspace and timing?" I once heard a puzzled M2 gunner ask. Dreadful, but not nearly as alarming as the number of GIs I ran into who'd never torn down any of their rifle or pistol magazines for inspection and cleaning.
While on the surface it might appear that our weapons are failing us, it might bear some perspective to recognize that we're sometimes not as proficient with the tools of our trade as you might expect us to be.
I assure you, I have taken down and cleaned many AR's. But the bottom line is, it shouldn't be this hard to maintain. Espeically with the guns available out there now. The mags' suck.
I assure you, I have taken down and cleaned many AR's. But the bottom line is, it shouldn't be this hard to maintain. Espeically with the guns available out there now. The mags' suck.
I wasn't actually suggesting that you hadn't. I'm merely putting into text my own observations. I've torn down plenty of ARs, too. Not to mention a few M14s, AKs, HKs, R4s, L1A1s, PKs, MAGs/M240s, M60s, M2s, Mk19s, M249s, ... All have their strengths, as well as their quirks.
Your concern about being "hard to maintain" didn't stop the greatest generation from keeping their M2s running like it's doing to Soldiers today. There is no such thing as a "maintenance-free" weapon. Therein lies the problem. Maintenance today almost consistently takes a far back seat to any number of other "distractions". Everything's "hard to maintain" if maintenance is something you'd rather not do.
I wasn't actually suggesting that you hadn't. I'm merely putting into text my own observations. I've torn down plenty of ARs, too. Not to mention a few M14s, AKs, HKs, R4s, L1A1s, PKs, MAGs/M240s, M60s, M2s, Mk19s, M249s, ... All have their strengths, as well as their quirks.
Your concern about being "hard to maintain" didn't stop the greatest generation from keeping their M2s running like it's doing to Soldiers today. There is no such thing as a "maintenance-free" weapon. Therein lies the problem. Maintenance today almost consistently takes a far back seat to any number of other "distractions". Everything's "hard to maintain" if maintenance is something you'd rather not do.
You have to admit, M14 is much easier rifle to maintain. Or M1.
LIsten, you have been there and done it. I haven't, but it boggles my mind that a soldier wouldn't take care of his rifle like his life depended on it. Pun intended. I know if I was in a warzone, I would rub that darling like a prom date and make sure she was in tip top condition.
Some times thats hard to do with 200 crazed religious zealots shooting rpg's and small arms fire for several hours.
I don't think anyone is saying clean your gun in the middle of a firefight. More like before hand, when the 200crazed religious zealots are getting ready and cleaning thier guns.
Some times thats hard to do with 200 crazed religious zealots shooting rpg's and small arms fire for several hours.
Dont think that base was being attacked everyday. When Im over there, I clean my mags and bullets every other day. If I didnt, they would jam or , in the case of my 9mm mags, the bullets would just fall out if tipped upside down....or pulled out of my mag pouch.
A properly cleaned M4 has never failed me and the fully auto GUU I carried in Iraq never jammed once.
This phenomena isn't new. Many M-16's jammed during the Vietnam war and the primary culprit was shoddy to non-existence cleaning by troops in the field. In Vietnam, they had a huge humidity and moisture problem whereas Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. would present a problem with sand, dirt and other grit. It doesn't matter what weapon system you have, if you don't maintain it, it will eventually jam (including Glocks, AK's, etc.).
I'm not willing to say that sand/dirt/poor cleaning was the specific problem with that Staff Sergeant's weapons as I just don't know his specifics. My comments are in general but are made with personal observations as a cop and former Marine and through discussions with other service members/cops who have also been there and learned those same issues personally.
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crappy M4's ?
