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Old 09-19-2009, 06:07 PM   #1
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Default Ambushed Marines Were Refused Fire Support

Four Marines died when their commanders refused artillery support for the ambushed unit. Those officers who turned down this request for fire support should be horse whipped.

Maybe it is time to fold the flag and bug out of Afghanistan. We most likely will not win this one.

i really do gotta puke.

http://www.military.com/news/article...24&ESRC=dod.nl

Quote:
NATO-led forces are investigating the death of four Marines in eastern Afghanistan after their commanders reportedly rejected requests for artillery fire in a battle with insurgents, the Pentagon said on Wednesday.

A McClatchy newspapers' journalist who witnessed the battle reported that a team of Marine trainers made repeated appeals for air and artillery support after being pinned down by insurgents in the village of Ganjgal in eastern Kunar province.

The U.S. troops had to wait more than an hour for attack helicopters to come to their aid and their appeal for artillery fire was rejected, with commanders citing new rules designed to avoid civilian casualties, the report said.
.............................

Eight Afghan soldiers and police and an Afghan interpreter also died in the battle, which lasted for hours with insurgents unleashing a barrage of gunfire and rockets from mountain positions, the report said.
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Old 09-19-2009, 06:17 PM   #2
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"You go to war with the army you have, not the army you'd like to have."

...and untold numbers of people line up on this forum to defend the guy who said that...the same guy who later resigned. So why should this bother any of them?

Last edited by LBR; 09-21-2009 at 10:49 AM.
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Old 09-19-2009, 08:12 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vc1111 View Post
"You go to war with the army you have, not the army you'd like to have."

...and untold numbers of people line up on this forum to defend the guy who said that...the same guy who later resigned. So why should this bother any of them?
I don't want to second guess this story too much: we lack the information to make much of an evaluation at this point. But I do have a comment on vc1111's quote above. I don't get it. How is that comment germane to the information that was provided in the initial post? The post said the commanders made their decision NOT to provide fire support because of new rules designed to reduce civilian casualties. I would not bust the balls of these commanders (who is intended by "the army you have not the army you'ld like to have" other than these commanders?). They were following the rules of engagement that were dished up for them: its called following the chain of command. Who is responsible for these rules of engagement? Probably not some Colonel or General in theater but rather some very high ranking guy back in Washington or even in the Administration or even Obama himself.

Let's let the story percolate a little bit and find out why and how these rules of engagement were put in place. And maybe, just maybe, the rules of engagement make sense. There is probably no set of rules of engagement that are perfect. I just think we ought to be careful about prejudging this. We don't have a lot of information or insight into the circumstances here, is my opinion.

Last edited by LBR; 09-21-2009 at 10:50 AM.
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Old 09-19-2009, 08:32 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vc1111 View Post
"You go to war with the army you have, not the army you'd like to have."

...and untold numbers of people line up on this forum to defend the guy who said that...the same guy who later resigned. So why should this bother any of them?
How exactly does that statement equal turning down support that is there in theater only because this administration has changed the rules? Your the military's worst friend! I thank God you never had my back (or didn't) when I served!

This isn't the only change they have made. Reading of maranda and the release or charging individuals only after 96 hours has completely hand tied our military. When you quit fighting to win, it's time to quit fighting.
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Last edited by LBR; 09-21-2009 at 10:50 AM.
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Old 09-20-2009, 05:52 AM   #5
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Quote:
The post said the commanders made their decision NOT to provide fire support because of new rules designed to reduce civilian casualties. I would not bust the balls of these commanders (who is intended by "the army you have not the army you'ld like to have" other than these commanders?). They were following the rules of engagement that were dished up for them: its called following the chain of command. Who is responsible for these rules of engagement? Probably not some Colonel or General in theater but rather some very high ranking guy back in Washington or even in the Administration or even Obama himself.

The soldiers who had limbs blown off were following orders also because of similar 'rules of engagement' which basically said, "Go. And don't worry about the fact that this humvee has about as much armor as a Hyundai." I am still disgusted by the idea that our troops were subjected to UNNECESSARY risk and carnage for nearly TWO years before a trooper complained publicly...which triggered the embarrassment which FINALLY provided the impetus to up-armor a variety of vehicles...vehicles which were previously so flimsly that our kids were rummaging through scrap heaps for plywood and scrap metal to cobble together what they should have had to begin with.

I am utterly disgusted with the idea that we are still not willing to pull the cork out of the bottle and go to war. We are still playing with "embedded reporters" and we are still playing footsie with the "rules of engagement" in this conflict. This is very similar to our refusal to shoot into mosques.

I am primarily concerned with the safety of OUR troops first and foremost. So was Schwartzkopf.

Look at Gulf I if you want to see the type of leadership I do approve of. Schwartzkopf's first order of business was getting the job DONE, not playing to a liberal mindset of "fair play."

And when it came time to pull the cork out of the bottle, he had the stones to do it. Remember how he dealt with the convoy on its way back to Baghdad? He destroyed those fighters and that equipment and as I recall none of that equipment and none of that particular bunch of Hussein's soldiers were still around when we marched in there again, where they? I don't recall him worrying too much about any civilians that were mixed within those lines of military hardward and ordinary pickups and passenger cars. He was primarily concerned with eliminating the enemy...the same enemy that threatened the safety of our troops on the ground.

Anybody, ANY American who does not openly and consistently demand the best for our troops and rules of engagement that protect them FIRST is feeding into an acceptance of the idea that our troops are less valuable than those we are fighting for.

So should we "wait and see" if this was somehow justified? Maybe; one can always make such an argument...but in the wake of all we've seen, so many failures, so much malfeasance, so much stupidity in the rule of engagement, so many needless dismemberments, and troopers being essentially put on public trial by embedded reporters, I won't stand on one leg waiting too long for this, which clearly appears to be yet another example of the same, to be "justified."

This idea that we should go to war "politely" with rules of engagment like we've seen, may just be the greatest threat to this nation's long-term security...especially when dealing with terrorism.
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Old 09-20-2009, 06:50 AM   #6
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Go ahead a attempt a full speed back peddle on your dumb statement.

Quote:
The soldiers who had limbs blown off were following orders also because of similar 'rules of engagement' which basically said, "Go. And don't worry about the fact that this humvee has about as much armor as a Hyundai." I am still disgusted by the idea that our troops were subjected to UNNECESSARY risk and carnage for nearly TWO years before a trooper complained publicly...which triggered the embarrassment which FINALLY provided the impetus to up-armor a variety of vehicles...vehicles which were previously so flimsly that our kids were rummaging through scrap heaps for plywood and scrap metal to cobble together what they should have had to begin with.
It wasn't the troops who complained it was a reporter who used a soldier to ask a set up question. Not even the samething as a denied request for support in the area. Fact is armoring up humvees was underway and the factory was working at full capicitry at the time of that set up question along with efforts to get more factories on line to provide the same services. You don't call timeout in the middle of a war. As the enemy adjusts, so do you.
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Last edited by LBR; 09-21-2009 at 10:51 AM.
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Old 09-20-2009, 07:00 AM   #7
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We are going to hear more of this with the current administration. What the heck does Barry know about war! It's evident from his past actions he not going to be tough on the enemy, he's more worried about bankrupting our country.
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Old 09-20-2009, 07:32 AM   #8
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Too bad that the architects of the "war on terror" did not but enough troops on the ground to get the job done. Now our fine troops are paying a horrible price for the ill advised attempt to make the "war on terror" an international exercise in nation building.

The US allowed Karzai to re-establish shariah law in 2004. The same religious police who threw acid in the faces of women under the Taliban are back to their old tricks under Karzai with the blessings of the US government. The so called government of Afghanistan is totally corrupt and incompetent. How damn quaint; the ridiculous concept of a democracy under shariah law.

The Obama bunch relieved a four star general of his command in Afghanistan because he did not want to play their new game. Never mind that Gates appointed the man to the job in the first place. The situation will only get worse.
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Old 09-20-2009, 07:42 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by falcon View Post
Too bad that the architects of the "war on terror" did not but enough troops on the ground to get the job done. Now our fine troops are paying a horrible price for the ill advised attempt to make the "war on terror" an international exercise in nation building.

The US allowed Karzai to re-establish shariah law in 2004. The same religious police who threw acid in the faces of women under the Taliban are back to their old tricks under Karzai with the blessings of the US government. The so called government of Afghanistan is totally corrupt and incompetent. How damn quaint; the ridiculous concept of a democracy under shariah law.

The Obama bunch relieved a four star general of his command in Afghanistan because he did not want to play their new game. Never mind that Gates appointed the man to the job in the first place. The situation will only get worse.
Falcon finally something we agree on.. Fight the darn war right (with enough troops) , or get hell out!! We don't need to make your boys sitting targets. I know what that feels like! It SUX
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Old 09-20-2009, 12:19 PM   #10
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Too bad that the architects of the "war on terror" did not but enough troops on the ground to get the job done. Now our fine troops are paying a horrible price for the ill advised attempt to make the "war on terror" an international exercise in nation building.
That's a complete BS statement falcon. The only requst I nkow of off the top of my head that Bush turned down was pain medication to Mr Zarchawi. You sat there and claimed not enough troops were on the ground in Iraq according to XXXX (sorry what ever that General name was) but he was wrong. During this time, I had to read posts by the forum IDIOT, claiming Iraq was just like Vietnam. When your not a deep thinker and only can recite news headlines, what but headlines will you be able to repeat? It turns out, the wrong strategy was in place and in fact they completed the job with less troops. I'm hoping and praying Obama doesn't screw up Iraq. We fought too hard and sacraficed too much to surrender it today.

Now you have a refocus of the enemy on Afghanistan. They have shifted strategy there and frankly, I can't tell the difference between Al Qaeda or Talban. Falcon claims Sharia Law is now in place but isn't that what Osama wants? It's not fair to say not enough troops were on the ground to get the job done because there was relative peace in the region while the main focus was Iraq to the terrorist.

Now that the focus has changed to Afghanistan for the terrorist, we three can agree, you have to put enough troops in there to win and quit restricting how to fight the war. If your not willing to do it, it's time to pull the troops. The problem we are facing and have been everytime a Dem is in office lately, we are weak and our allies don't matter. Too bad our troops have to suffer the liberal policies.
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