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Old 08-19-2009, 08:22 AM   #1
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Default Principal and A.D. might go to jail and lose retirement for blessing a meal.

School Principal and Coach to be sentenced to PRISON for blessing food at FL School under ACLU Freedom of Speech Ban.
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School prayer charges stir protests
Educators face jail in Florida
By Julia Duin (Contact)

Originally published 04:45 a.m., August 14, 2009, updated 12:20 p.m., August 14, 2009

Students, teachers and local pastors are protesting over a court case involving a northern Florida school principal and an athletic director who are facing criminal charges and up to six months in jail over their offer of a mealtime prayer.

There have been yard signs, T-shirts and a mass student protest during graduation ceremonies this spring on behalf of Pace High School Principal Frank Lay and school athletic director Robert Freeman, who will go on trial Sept. 17 at a federal district court in Pensacola for breaching the conditions of a lawsuit settlement reached last year with the American Civil Liberties Union.

"I have been defending religious freedom issues for 22 years, and I've never had to defend somebody who has been charged criminally for praying," said Mathew Staver, founder and chairman of Liberty Counsel, the Orlando-based legal group that is defending the two school officials.

An ACLU official said the school district has allowed "flagrant" violations of the First Amendment for years.

"The defendants all admitted wrongdoing," said Daniel Mach, director of litigation for its freedom of religion program. "For example, the Pace High School teachers handbook asks teachers to 'embrace every opportunity to inculcate, by precept and example, the practice of every Christian virtue.' "

The fight involving the ACLU, the school district and several devout Christian employees began last August when the ACLU sued Santa Rosa County Schools on behalf of two students who had complained privately to the group's Florida affiliate, claiming some teachers and administrators were allowing prayers at school events such as graduations, orchestrating separate religiously themed graduation services, and "proselytizing" students during class and after school.

In January, the Santa Rosa County School District settled out of court with the ACLU, agreeing to several things, including a provision to bar all school employees from promoting or sponsoring prayers during school-sponsored events; holding school events at church venues when a secular alternative was available; or promoting their religious beliefs or attempting to convert students in class or during school-sponsored events.

Mr. Staver said the district also agreed to forbid senior class President Mary Allen from speaking at the school's May 30 graduation ceremony on the chance that the young woman, a known Christian, might say something religious.

"She was the first student body president in 33 years not allowed to speak," he said.

In response, many members of the 300-plus-member student body taped crosses to their mortarboards and stood for an impromptu recitation of the Lord's Prayer during the ceremony.

Mr. Mach responded, "We believe students have the constitutional right to pray voluntarily in public or private. Constitutional problems arise only when public school officials promote or endorse prayer or specific religious views."

The criminal charges, which carry up to a $5,000 fine and a six-month jail term, originated with a Jan. 28 incident in which Mr. Lay, a deacon at a local Baptist church, asked Mr. Freeman to offer mealtime prayers at a lunch for school employees and booster-club members who had helped with a school field-house project.

Mr. Staver said no students were present at the event, which was held on school property but after school hours.

"He wasn't thinking he was violating an order," he said. "Neither did the athletic director. He was asked to pray and so he did."

Mr. Mach said the event was during the school day and that Mr. Lay, the school's principal, has said in writing that students were present.

"Decisions about the religious upbringing of children should be left in the hands of parents, not school officials," he said. As to whether prayer constitutes "religious upbringing," he said, "If school officials were promoting non-majority faiths and religious viewpoints, I suspect there'd be an uproar."

The ACLU brought the matter to the attention of U.S. District Court Judge M. Casey Rodgers, who issued a contempt order for the two men.

Meanwhile, members of the small community of Milton, Fla., where Pace High School is located, have contributed more than $10,000 toward a legal defense fund for the defendants.

Anti-ACLU T-shirts are also being sold and the proceeds donated.

Judge Rodgers' order also included Michelle Winkler, a clerical assistant who was attending a school district event in February with other school employees at a local naval base. There, she asked her husband to offer a blessing for a meal, says the ACLU, adding that students were present and led the Pledge of Allegiance.

"She didn't do the blessing; she asked somebody to do it," Mr. Staver said. "The ACLU is sending people to school to monitor things happening on campus and see if there is anything encouraging religious activity, then running to the court if they see anything."

Her trial, which could result in a fine, is scheduled for Aug. 21.

[link to www.washingtontimes.com]
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Old 08-19-2009, 08:32 AM   #2
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I feel kind of sorry for them and I respect them for the strength of their convictions. But they had already agreed in a previous case not to do that. And it's pretty well known in this country that, whether one agrees or not, prayers and religious instruction in a public school are not permitted.

I think if people believe they should teach religion in school, they should get a job at a school where religion is taught. We will likely send our kid(s) to a Catholic school. Teaching religion there is completely legal.
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Old 08-19-2009, 08:57 AM   #3
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DLG, what do you kind of feel sorry for them... Are you turning to the left right before our eyes? (from reading your post in the past, your certainly not conservative, you are a moderate leaning to the left)

There were no students present. They have been doing the same thing for 20 years, I guess we have too many passive Christians allowing the freaking ACLU take our God given rights away.

The ACLU and PETA are made out of the same mold, a rotten mold at that. Wacko, Sicko, Egg sucking lousy ingrates.. I could throw a bunch more in there, but I'm sure I would be accused of being violent
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Old 08-19-2009, 09:35 AM   #4
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Now, how about the question of Islamic, fed. funded schools? I see this stuff as a double standard. Or how about Muslims allowed to break school policies to pray? Public schools have to allow Muslim students to leave class, during class time to pray, yet a Christian is not afforded the same privilage. It is of equal importance for a Christian to bless their meals. Why did these school officials have to agree agianst their faith in the first place? Why is it Ok to make exceptions for one faith but give no ground with another?
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Old 08-19-2009, 09:38 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by daddyslittlegirl View Post
And it's pretty well known in this country that, whether one agrees or not, prayers and religious instruction in a public school are not permitted.
That isn't exactly true. Prayers that are school-sponsored or coordinated by the school or its employees are not permitted. Unless we've turned a new corner in the so-called "separation of church and state" while I wasn't looking, that's as far as it goes. Prayers occur in public schools every day. They just have to be student-led and on the students' own time.

One attorney's version in this particular story is that there were no students present when the prayer was said, and it wasn't during the school day. The other attorney says students were present. It comes down to which one you decide to believe, but if you believe the former, can you cite any previous examples that would make it "pretty well known" that such behavior isn't permitted?

As I said when I posted that story a few days ago, I think it's pathetic. It makes me glad to live in my small Southern town that hasn't yet been infiltrated by the ACLU with their nonsense. Friday night, we'll have our season-opening high school football game. And before the game starts, someone will say a prayer for the safety of the players and the safety of the spectators heading home (and, horror of horrors, they'll probably even ask God to save anyone present who might not know Jesus as their Lord and Saviour). Most folks will bow their heads when the prayer is said. Those who don't subscribe to that sort of thing will merely remain quiet and respectful. They won't be offended, and no one will go whining to a court about it.
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Old 08-19-2009, 09:42 AM   #6
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That isn't exactly true. Prayers that are school-sponsored or coordinated by the school or its employees are not permitted. Unless we've turned a new corner in the so-called "separation of church and state" while I wasn't looking, that's as far as it goes. Prayers occur in public schools every day. They just have to be student-led and on the students' own time.

One attorney's version in this particular story is that there were no students present when the prayer was said, and it wasn't during the school day. The other attorney says students were present. It comes down to which one you decide to believe, but if you believe the former, can you cite any previous examples that would make it "pretty well known" that such behavior isn't permitted?

As I said when I posted that story a few days ago, I think it's pathetic. It makes me glad to live in my small Southern town that hasn't yet been infiltrated by the ACLU with their nonsense. Friday night, we'll have our season-opening high school football game. And before the game starts, someone will say a prayer for the safety of the players and the safety of the spectators heading home (and, horror of horrors, they'll probably even ask God to save anyone present who might not know Jesus as their Lord and Saviour). Most folks will bow their heads when the prayer is said. Those who don't subscribe to that sort of thing will merely remain quiet and respectful. They won't be offended, and no one will go whining to a court about it.

Some thing Id like to add; Muslim teachers are allowed to leave classes to face east and pray. In the hall, none the less. I will admit that this might be a local thing, but I know of two devout Muslim teacher who are allowed to leave classes to pray. Not in my local, but in a more urban area.
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Old 08-19-2009, 10:56 AM   #7
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DLG, what do you kind of feel sorry for them... Are you turning to the left right before our eyes? (from reading your post in the past, your certainly not conservative, you are a moderate leaning to the left)

There were no students present. They have been doing the same thing for 20 years, I guess we have too many passive Christians allowing the freaking ACLU take our God given rights away.

The ACLU and PETA are made out of the same mold, a rotten mold at that. Wacko, Sicko, Egg sucking lousy ingrates.. I could throw a bunch more in there, but I'm sure I would be accused of being violent
I tend to identify myself as a moderate right-wing extremist. I feel sorry for them because I feel sorry for anyone who gets themselves in trouble because they don't really understand the law.

I'm hoping they didn't get into this mess because their lawyer didn't explain to them that when they agreed to the previous settlement, it would be issued by the court as a judgment by the court. In that case violation of the agreement would be considered contempt of court.

They didn't have to agree. They could have said, anyone of them, "I quit. If I can't have prayers in my school and talk about Jesus, I don't want to work here."

One person says the event took place in the evening and no students were present. The principal, however, has apparently stated, in writing, that it took place during the day and students were present. So the judge is going to have to decide which report is accurate.

I think the outcome will turn on whether or not it is determined to be a school function. One can hold meetings on school property, even involving students, which involve the discussion of religion and include prayer as long as it is not part of a school function.

So we don't have enough facts right now to come to any conclusions. Could it be they violated the previous settlement/court order? Maybe. Or could the ACLU be overreacting to a meeting which was not an actual school function, in which case, no contempt, no foul.

There was a time in our country I guess, where the basic Protestant version of Christianity was presented in the public schools. Catholics tended to send their kids to Catholic schools and Jewish parents sent their kids to Hebrew school. Very little opportunity for conflict there. But we now have a society with many different versions of Christianity as well as a noticeable number of agnostics and atheists who prefer that their children not be taught religion in school. Add to the list parents such as my husband and I who do not want a public school teacher presenting his/her version of religion to our child or children.

So I think it's clear why things have turned out the way they have. If you want your child to learn religion, you'll just have to do it through a combination of your church and your home.
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Old 08-19-2009, 11:02 AM   #8
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As I understand the story, the principle was informed that the precise thing he was doing was against the law and he then deliberately broke the law. I'm sure as a good Christian he must think that was the right thing to do and that he will live a blessed life in the hereafter . . . but under the law he has committed a crime and is liable to the punishments provided by the law. You don't have to agree with the law. You can try to change it. But while it stands as law, breaking the law is a crime and punishable as such.

Isn't that all a no brainer? What is the bone of contention here? Did these guys break the law or not? Seems like they did. End of game.
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Old 08-19-2009, 11:15 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Alsatian View Post
As I understand the story, the principle was informed that the precise thing he was doing was against the law and he then deliberately broke the law. I'm sure as a good Christian he must think that was the right thing to do and that he will live a blessed life in the hereafter . . . but under the law he has committed a crime and is liable to the punishments provided by the law. You don't have to agree with the law. You can try to change it. But while it stands as law, breaking the law is a crime and punishable as such.

Isn't that all a no brainer? What is the bone of contention here? Did these guys break the law or not? Seems like they did. End of game.
Well this is one of those cases which is going to court and the people involved will be testifying, under oath, as to the facts. We, although we are interested, can only discuss it in a hypothetical manner since we do not have all the facts.
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Old 08-19-2009, 11:35 AM   #10
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Now, how about the question of Islamic, fed. funded schools? I see this stuff as a double standard. Or how about Muslims allowed to break school policies to pray? Public schools have to allow Muslim students to leave class, during class time to pray, yet a Christian is not afforded the same privilage. It is of equal importance for a Christian to bless their meals. Why did these school officials have to agree agianst their faith in the first place? Why is it Ok to make exceptions for one faith but give no ground with another?
It is a double standard. I had a Muslim Project Manager on the job in Waxahachie Texas (hired by out General Contractor) . I don't know how many times a day he took out his magic carpet and prayed to Ala facing East. It is a double standard that the Freaking Liberals have allowed to happen.
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