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Old 09-29-2008, 11:24 AM   #1
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Default Mark to market

Has anyone read/heard how this accounting rule is part of the problem?

Basically, if a financial institution hold mortgage securities, they must value them on current market value instead of actual real estate value, or future payoff value.

So, if nobody's buying mortgage securities -- that is, no bids on the table -- then the financial institutions must report their value as zero!

Mortgage securities go from a hot commodity to one that is not traded, and overnight, banks, brokerage houses, etc., are insolvent.

That's like saying your house is worth zero, because nobody is currently offering you money for it. Is your home worthless? If it burnt down now, would you accept zero dollars from you insurance company?

There is a big problem with this mark to market accounting.
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Old 09-29-2008, 11:36 AM   #2
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Default RE: Mark to market

I believe there is money to be made down the road for assuming those depressed mortgages. If the tax payer is paying for the bailout I hope they are the ones to receive the profits if there are any. In reality.....all the government that will have to be created to manage this issue will syphone off any profits.
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Old 09-29-2008, 11:56 AM   #3
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Default RE: Mark to market

If the risk and associated transfer costs of transferring the liability in the from of mortgage securities is high enough that there are no takers, then there could actually be no value at that point. Section 475 of the IRS code essentially values the property at a given moment for the purposes of realizing gains/losses.

The repackaging of some of the securities involved was apparently done in such a way that valuations are more than a little difficult. That coupled with the disparity in downward spirals of real estate values on a national basis and it is no wonder that analysis of the risk is enough to cause a decline...possibly all the way to zero.


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Old 09-29-2008, 12:03 PM   #4
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Default RE: Mark to market

Quote:
ORIGINAL: vc1111

If the risk and associated transfer costs of transferring the liability in the from of mortgage securities is high enough that there are no takers, then there could actually be no value at that point. Section 475 of the IRS code essentially values the property at a given moment for the purposes of realizing gains/losses.

The repackaging of some of the securities involved was apparently done in such a way that valuations are more than a little difficult. That coupled with the disparity in downward spirals of real estate values on a national basis and it is no wonder that analysis of the risk is enough to cause a decline...possibly all the way to zero.
I don't have all the jargon down, but if you have a baseball card collection, and all the cards are common (worthless) but one, and that one is a Horace Wagner, then IMO, that collection should not be said to have a value of zero. It is possible to assign a more realistic worth to these securities than zero.
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Old 09-29-2008, 12:18 PM   #5
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Default RE: Mark to market

LOL Common sense aint so common these days...
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Old 09-29-2008, 12:23 PM   #6
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Default RE: Mark to market

The issue at hand is hardly that simple.

Risk by itself, can reduce value substantially.

One Wagner may not come close to overcoming the transfer costs of repossessing and liquidation massive amount of real estate, but real estate is not what is being sold in this case. The packages of mortgages are packages of income, income which is highly suspect of not ever showing up because of the risks of default.

The liquidations of the underlying real estate in these cases might be hard to analyze because the real estate values have fallen. In other words, you might have for example, a $450,000 mortgage on a property which was worth $500,000, but is now worth $350,000. Why would you buy that mortgage? Even if you sold the property you'd still lose.

Now ask yourself what a package of those types of mortgages might be worth? Any takers? Could you afford re-appraisals of all the properties in the package? Even if the numbers worked, what about the risk of default? How can you analyze how each loan was underwritten after they're repackaged a number of times?

Here's the definition of one type of the securities in question, the CMO:

Collateralized mortgage obligations (CMOs), a type of mortgage-backed security, are bonds that represent claims to specific cash flows from large pools of home mortgages. The streams of principal and interest payments on the mortgages are distributed to the different classes of CMO interests, known as tranches, according to a complicated deal structure. Each tranche may have different principal balances, coupon rates, prepayment risks, and maturity dates (ranging from a few months to twenty years).
CMOs are often highly sensitive to changes in interest rates and any resulting change in the rate at which homeowners sell their properties, refinance, or otherwise pre-pay their loans. Investors in these securities may not only be subjected to this prepayment risk, but also exposed to significant market and liquidity risks.



Here's another known at the CDO:
Collateralized debt obligations are securitized interests in pools of"”generally non-mortgage"”assets. Assets"”called collateral"”usually comprise loans or debt instruments. A CDO may be called a collateralized loan obligation (CLO) or collateralized bond obligation (CBO) if it holds only loans or bonds, respectively. Investors bear the credit risk of the collateral. Multiple tranches of securities are issued by the CDO, offering investors various maturity and credit risk characteristics. Tranches are categorized as senior, mezzanine, and subordinated/equity, according to their degree of credit risk. If there are defaults or the CDO's collateral otherwise underperforms, scheduled payments to senior tranches take precedence over those of mezzanine tranches, and scheduled payments to mezzanine tranches take precedence over those to subordinated/equity tranches.
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Old 09-29-2008, 12:38 PM   #7
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Default RE: Mark to market

Quote:
ORIGINAL: vc1111
The liquidations of the underlying real estate in these cases might be hard to analyze because the real estate values have fallen. In other words, you might have for example, a $450,000 mortgage on a property which was worth $500,000, but is now worth $350,000. Why would you buy that mortgage? Even if you sold the property you'd still lose.
You need to explain everything this way ^^^

I agree that nobody would want to buy it, but that doesn't take the value from $350,000 down to zero.

Stocks lose money all the time, but we don't round them down to zero at the end of the day.
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Old 09-29-2008, 12:46 PM   #8
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Default RE: Mark to market

Quote:
ORIGINAL: vc1111
Collateralized debt obligations are securitized interests in pools of"”generally non-mortgage"”assets. Assets"”called collateral"”usually comprise loans or debt instruments. A CDO may be called a collateralized loan obligation (CLO) or collateralized bond obligation (CBO) if it holds only loans or bonds, respectively. Investors bear the credit risk of the collateral. Multiple tranches of securities are issued by the CDO, offering investors various maturity and credit risk characteristics. Tranches are categorized as senior, mezzanine, and subordinated/equity, according to their degree of credit risk. If there are defaults or the CDO's collateral otherwise underperforms, scheduled payments to senior tranches take precedence over those of mezzanine tranches, and scheduled payments to mezzanine tranches take precedence over those to subordinated/equity tranches.
i know you typed in english, but my brain heard some odd sub-equatorial aboriginal throat-clicking language.

which leads me to believe we are all very much at the mercy of bankers and economists, and i wonder how many of them really have a firm grasp of what's going on.
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Old 09-29-2008, 07:27 PM   #9
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Default RE: Mark to market

Quote:
Stocks lose money all the time, but we don't round them down to zero at the end of the day.
YOu have to realize that the mortgages aren't really an asset like stocks. They are an income stream with a much riskier downside than zero...negative thousands upon thousands and that downside is determined by those that have already made some pretty poor choices, as I understand it.
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Old 09-29-2008, 07:32 PM   #10
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Default RE: Mark to market

I have heard that that the current mortgage crises is due to rule changes enacted by government.

Can anyone explain exactly what rules were changed?

All that I have been able to determine is that there were changes made that allowed a mortgage to be rated less risky than it actually was and this allowed the lending institutes to resell the mortgage at a higher value than they should.

Can anyone paint the whole picture in layman"™s terms?

Thanks
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