logo
 

Go Back   HuntingNet.com Forums > Non Hunting > Politics

Politics Nothing goes with politics quite like crying and complaining, and we're a perfect example of that.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-21-2008, 01:57 AM   #1
Boone & Crockett
 
Fieldmouse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location:
Posts: 17,824
Default The Idiocy of Energy Independence

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/08/the_idiocy_of_energy_independe.html
August 20, 2008
The Idiocy of Energy IndependenceBy John Stossel

It's amazing how ideas with no merit become popular merely because they sound good.
Most every politician and pundit says "energy independence" is a great idea. Presidents have promised it for 35 years. Wouldn't it be wonderful if we were self-sufficient, protected from high prices, supply disruptions and political machinations?
The hitch is that even if the United States were energy independent, it would be protected from none of those things. To think otherwise is to misunderstand basic economics and the global marketplace.




[/align]To be for "energy independence" is to be against trade. But trade makes us as safe. Crop destruction from this summer's floods in the Midwest should remind us of the folly of depending only on ourselves. Achieving "energy independence" would expose us to unnecessary risks -- such as storms that knock out oil refineries or droughts that create corn -- and ethanol -- shortages. [/align]Trade also saves us money. "We import energy for a reason," says the Cato Institute's energy expert, Jerry Taylor, "It's cheaper than producing it here at home. A governmental war on energy imports will, by definition, raise energy prices".
Anyway, a "domestic energy only" policy (call it "Drain America First"?) is a fantasy. America's demand for oil is too great for us to supply ourselves. Electricity we could provide. Not with windmills and solar panels -- they are not yet close to providing enough -- but coal and nuclear power could produce America's electricity.
But cars need oil. We don't have nearly enough.
That doesn't keep the presidential candidates from preying on the public's economic ignorance.
"I have set before the American people an energy plan, the Lexington Project -- named for the town where Americans asserted their independence once before," John McCain said. "This nation will achieve strategic independence by 2025".
Barack Obama, promising to "set America on path to energy independence," is upset that we send millions to other countries. "They get our money because we need their oil".
His concern that "they get our money" is echoed in commercials funded by Republican businessman T. Boone Pickens, who wants government subsidies for alternative energy. He tries to scare us by saying, "$700 billion are leaving this country to foreign nations every year -- the largest transfer of wealth in the history of mankind."
Don't Obama and Pickens realize that we get something useful for that money? It's not a "transfer"; it's a win-win transaction, like all voluntary trade. Who cares if the sellers live in a foreign country? When two parties trade, each is better off -- or the exchange would never have been made. We want the oil more than the money. They want the money more than the oil. They need us as much as we need them.
And Obama is wrong when he implies that America imports most of its oil from the Mideast. Most of it comes from Canada and Mexico.
McCain and Obama talk constantly about how much they will "invest" -- with money taken from the taxpayers, of course -- to achieve energy independence. "[W]e can provide loan guarantees and venture capital to those with the best plans to develop and sell biofuels on a commercial market," Obama said.
What makes Obama think he's qualified to pick the "best plans"? It's the robust competition of the free market that reveals what's best. Obama's program would preempt the only good method we have for learning which form of energy is best.
Has he learned nothing from the conceits of his predecessors? Jimmy Carter, saying that achieving energy independence was the "moral equivalent of war," called for "the most massive peacetime commitment of funds ... to develop America's own alternative". Then he wasted billions of our tax dollars on the utterly failed "synfuel" program.
McCain promises a $300-million prize to whoever develops a battery for an electric car. But the free market already provides plenty of incentive to invent a better battery. As George Mason University economist Donald Boudreaux writes, "Anyone who develops such a device will earn profits dwarfing $300 million simply by selling it on the market. There's absolutely no need for any such taxpayer-funded prize".
Central energy planning and government-funded prizes are economic idiocy.
__________________
John Adams “The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence.”

Ronald Reagan: 'Everybody that is for abortion has already been born'

"I never said I was worth it. I only said I wouldn't do it for less " William F. Buckley Jr.
Fieldmouse is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2008, 05:55 AM   #2
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location:
Posts: 1,108
Default RE: The Idiocy of Energy Independence

And I suppose the other option is to do nothing, as the former administration has done. Energy independence is not just a dream, it merely takes some sort of action. McCain will do nothing, a term with him will create absolutely nothing on future Independence, instead, more money will be wasted on nation building, world policing, Big Oil, and military contracts. Obama appears to want to shift the money back to the U.S, to try and correct the real problems we face. Actions speak louder than words, so someone needs to ACT.
RainmakerIII is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2008, 07:21 AM   #3
Boone & Crockett
 
Fieldmouse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location:
Posts: 17,824
Default RE: The Idiocy of Energy Independence

Quote:
ORIGINAL: RainmakerIII

And I suppose the other option is to do nothing, as the former administration has done. Energy independence is not just a dream, it merely takes some sort of action. McCain will do nothing, a term with him will create absolutely nothing on future Independence, instead, more money will be wasted on nation building, world policing, Big Oil, and military contracts. Obama appears to want to shift the money back to the U.S, to try and correct the real problems we face. Actions speak louder than words, so someone needs to ACT.
Funny how this paragragh went completely over your head. (FYI more evidence you have yet to join the working class)
Quote:
McCain and Obama talk constantly about how much they will "invest" -- with money taken from the taxpayers, of course -- to achieve energy independence. "[W]e can provide loan guarantees and venture capital to those with the best plans to develop and sell biofuels on a commercial market," Obama said.
What makes Obama think he's qualified to pick the "best plans"? It's the robust competition of the free market that reveals what's best. Obama's program would preempt the only good method we have for learning which form of energy is best.
__________________
John Adams “The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence.”

Ronald Reagan: 'Everybody that is for abortion has already been born'

"I never said I was worth it. I only said I wouldn't do it for less " William F. Buckley Jr.
Fieldmouse is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2008, 07:41 AM   #4
Nontypical Buck
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location:
Posts: 3,726
Default RE: The Idiocy of Energy Independence

Fieldmouse: I did not read your long post, but I'm with you. The term "energy independence" is a little misleading. Is it better to pay $140/barrel to buy oil from Texaco or from Kuwait? Seems it is the same deal to me. And it does seem foolish to think that somehow we are going to get a special discounted price from Texaco because they produced the oil in the US versus in Kuwait. Of course, transportation charges get involved, but my understanding is that the transportation charges are not a dominating portion of the price structure for crude oil.

There may be some point to this, however, in the sense that when OPEC controls less than a threshold percentage of world oil production they are not able to arbitrarily set prices. On the other hand, it seems like prices lately that we hear about are not set by the OPEC ministers issuing statements from their serene convocations but rather by futures markets.

So I admit your point that the language is ill-used and indefinite, but at the same time there is something behind the language. To the extent supplies are increased by increased drilling and increased oil production in the US, this benefits us in the United States (as well as others around the world, who also enjoy the benefits if we increase oil supply). To the extent we cannot control increasing oil stocks outside of the US, this may be the only course of action open to us to manage or mitigate the energy cost crunch.
Alsatian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2008, 08:14 AM   #5
Boone & Crockett
 
Fieldmouse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location:
Posts: 17,824
Default RE: The Idiocy of Energy Independence

Alsatian, I'm all for drilling here at home. I'm totally against this gang of ten package that has been floating around. It's all about spending billions more of our tax dollars and throughing it into this black hole called alternative energy and very littls on drilling for oil. There needs to be a Drilling Bill only. Completely seperate from anymore alternative fuel spending. We already are pouring billions into it and not a penny more needs to be spent.

For you guys who who feel more should be spent, what's the upper limit?
__________________
John Adams “The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence.”

Ronald Reagan: 'Everybody that is for abortion has already been born'

"I never said I was worth it. I only said I wouldn't do it for less " William F. Buckley Jr.
Fieldmouse is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2008, 08:42 AM   #6
Nontypical Buck
 
Canuck_Buck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Fort McMurray, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 4,913
Default RE: The Idiocy of Energy Independence

America could just take over Iraq, while She's there anyway.
__________________
Happiness is a warm gun.
Canuck_Buck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2008, 09:52 AM   #7
Nontypical Buck
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location:
Posts: 3,726
Default RE: The Idiocy of Energy Independence

I agree. Basically I think we probably know exactly what we need to know about alternative energy. Every alternative has a price point, and right now the price point of the alternatives is higher than oil. If the price point of oil stabilizes about the price point for one or more alternatives, you will rapidly see the alternative energy sources exploited and brought on line. It is just economics. I agree we should take a rational look at opening areas previously closed to drilling . . . but that doesn't mean automatically opening at any cost. I understand there are good reasons not to drill everywhere. This needs to be determined on a case-by-case basis rather than a blanket moratorium approach.
Alsatian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2008, 10:13 AM   #8
Giant Nontypical
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,161
Default RE: The Idiocy of Energy Independence

We'll see how the price point dodge against alternatives plays out the next time OPEC gets pissed at us and puts us under another embargo like they did in the 70's. When your car is running on fumes you have to sit in line for two hours at the gas station, and then have the station run out of gas before you get to the pump, then you'll understand the need for energy independence.

If you want our future national security and economy in control of OPEC, then fine. At least be aware of who is holding the knife to your throat.

Two things we know. Price point for alternatives will come down as we refine current technologies and create new ones, as we learn to produce more energy with less expense. Price point for oil will do nothing but increase from now on.
Arthur P is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2008, 11:01 AM   #9
Boone & Crockett
 
Fieldmouse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location:
Posts: 17,824
Default RE: The Idiocy of Energy Independence

Quote:
We'll see how the price point dodge against alternatives plays out the next time OPEC gets pissed at us and puts us under another embargo like they did in the 70's. When your car is running on fumes you have to sit in line for two hours at the gas station, and then have the station run out of gas before you get to the pump, then you'll understand the need for energy independence.
That's was a nice cop out but there was no gasoline shortage in the 70's. In fact the amount of gas sold year after year increased not decreased. If there truely was a shortage, wouldn't the amount have gone down?
__________________
John Adams “The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence.”

Ronald Reagan: 'Everybody that is for abortion has already been born'

"I never said I was worth it. I only said I wouldn't do it for less " William F. Buckley Jr.
Fieldmouse is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2008, 12:17 PM   #10
Giant Nontypical
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,161
Default RE: The Idiocy of Energy Independence

Quote:
That's was a nice cop out but there was no gasoline shortage in the 70's. In fact the amount of gas sold year after year increased not decreased. If there truely was a shortage, wouldn't the amount have gone down?
FM, you are full of crap. Maybe you should have paid more attention in history class, but I was a strapping lad of 21 and a cub newspaper reporter at the time, so I remember it quite well.

Odd/even rationing, ban on Sunday sales of gasoline, long lines at stations, people getting in fist fights and shootings over numbskulls trying to crash the lines, stations going out of business because they couldn't get gas, 'Sorry, No Gas Today' signs out front of stations, gas prices quadrupling practically overnight, Congress approving the Trans-Alaska pipeline to carry another 2 milliion barrels a day into our supply (today's furor about ANWR sounds kinda similar, doesn't it), U.S. and most of the rest of the West having a severe recession... I didn't just imagine all those things. I did a few local impact stories about them, in fact.

By the way, we had a Republican in the White House for that one too.







We had another oil crisis during the Iranian revolution in '79. A smaller one in 1990 when Iraq invaded Kuwait. This one with our invasion of Iraq and the aftermath of Katrina.

"Those who cannot remember the past are doomed to repeat it."


Arthur P is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A true story of complete idiocy and wild hogs. Korak Hogs and Exotics 5 11-06-2008 10:37 PM
snow day idiocy! mossbergman11 Young Hunters 4 02-26-2008 01:20 PM
And the idiocy begins kevin1 Politics 11 01-21-2007 07:32 PM

 

All times are GMT -8. The time now is 11:01 AM.