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Old 08-04-2008, 09:08 AM   #1
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Default What Is a 'Windfall' Profit?






http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121780636275808495.html?mod=opinion_main_review_ and_outlooks

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What Is a 'Windfall' Profit?
August 4, 2008
The "windfall profits" tax is back, with Barack Obama stumping again to apply it to a handful of big oil companies. Which raises a few questions: What is a "windfall" profit anyway? How does it differ from your everyday, run of the mill profit? Is it some absolute number, a matter of return on equity or sales -- or does it merely depend on who earns it?
Enquiring entrepreneurs want to know. Unfortunately, Mr. Obama's "emergency" plan, announced on Friday, doesn't offer any clarity. To pay for "stimulus" checks of $1,000 for families and $500 for individuals, the Senator says government would take "a reasonable share" of oil company profits.

Mr. Obama didn't bother to define "reasonable," and neither did Dick Durbin, the second-ranking Senate Democrat, when he recently declared that "The oil companies need to know that there is a limit on how much profit they can take in this economy." Really? This extraordinary redefinition of free-market success could use some parsing.
Take Exxon Mobil, which on Thursday reported the highest quarterly profit ever and is the main target of any "windfall" tax surcharge. Yet if its profits are at record highs, its tax bills are already at record highs too. Between 2003 and 2007, Exxon paid $64.7 billion in U.S. taxes, exceeding its after-tax U.S. earnings by more than $19 billion. That sounds like a government windfall to us, but perhaps we're missing some Obama-Durbin business subtlety.
Maybe they have in mind profit margins as a percentage of sales. Yet by that standard Exxon's profits don't seem so large. Exxon's profit margin stood at 10% for 2007, which is hardly out of line with the oil and gas industry average of 8.3%, or the 8.9% for U.S. manufacturing (excluding the sputtering auto makers).
If that's what constitutes windfall profits, most of corporate America would qualify. Take aerospace or machinery -- both 8.2% in 2007. Chemicals had an average margin of 12.7%. Computers: 13.7%. Electronics and appliances: 14.5%. Pharmaceuticals (18.4%) and beverages and tobacco (19.1%) round out the Census Bureau's industry rankings. The latter two double the returns of Big Oil, though of course government has already became a tacit shareholder in Big Tobacco through the various legal settlements that guarantee a revenue stream for years to come.
In a tax bill on oil earlier this summer, no fewer than 51 Senators voted to impose a 25% windfall tax on a U.S.-based oil company whose profits grew by more than 10% in a single year and wasn't investing enough in "renewable" energy. This suggests that a windfall is defined by profits growing too fast. No one knows where that 10% came from, besides political convenience. But if 10% is the new standard, the tech industry is going to have to rethink its growth arc. So will LG, the electronics company, which saw its profits grow by 505% in 2007. Abbott Laboratories hit 110%.
If Senator Obama is as exercised about "outrageous" profits as he says he is, he might also have to turn on a few liberal darlings. Oh, say, Berkshire Hathaway. Warren Buffett's outfit pulled in $11 billion last year, up 29% from 2006. Its profit margin -- if that's the relevant figure -- was 11.47%, which beats out the American oil majors.
Or consider Google, which earned a mere $4.2 billion but at a whopping 25.3% margin. Google earns far more from each of its sales dollars than does Exxon, but why doesn't Mr. Obama consider its advertising-search windfall worthy of special taxation?
The fun part about this game is anyone can play. Jim Johnson, formerly of Fannie Mae and formerly a political fixer for Mr. Obama, reaped a windfall before Fannie's multibillion-dollar accounting scandal. Bill Clinton took down as much as $15 million working as a rainmaker for billionaire financier Ron Burkle's Yucaipa Companies. This may be the very definition of "windfall."
General Electric profits by investing in the alternative energy technology that Mr. Obama says Congress should subsidize even more heavily than it already does. GE's profit margin in 2007 was 10.3%, about the same as profiteering Exxon's. Private-equity shops like Khosla Ventures and Kleiner Perkins, which recently hired Al Gore, also invest in alternative energy start-ups, though they keep their margins to themselves. We can safely assume their profits are lofty, much like those of George Soros's investment funds.
The point isn't that these folks (other than Mr. Clinton) have something to apologize for, or that these firms are somehow more "deserving" of windfall tax extortion than Big Oil. The point is that what constitutes an abnormal profit is entirely arbitrary. It is in the eye of the political beholder, who is usually looking to soak some unpopular business. In other words, a windfall is nothing more than a profit earned by a business that some politician dislikes. And a tax on that profit is merely a form of politically motivated expropriation.
It's what politicians do in Venezuela, not in a free country.
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Old 08-04-2008, 09:32 AM   #2
 
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Default RE: What Is a 'Windfall' Profit?

Using logic in debating a liberal is considered cheating and unfair...
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Old 08-04-2008, 11:00 AM   #3
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Default RE: What Is a 'Windfall' Profit?

Google's profit margin this quarter was around 25%. I don't hear the Dems calling for a windfall profit tax on them. Typical Liberal logic..... or lack thereof.
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Old 08-04-2008, 02:02 PM   #4
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Default RE: What Is a 'Windfall' Profit?

Good article again FM (second one) Obviously windfall profit taxes are a total joke. I'm glad they don't tax my profits like that.Btw, my margin is much higher than google's (yeah baby).

Let me ask you this. Could a law be passed to glean windfall taxes from oil companies and ignore other companies? I would think that surely that would be struck down by the courts???? I doubt if it will ever get that far anyway once 'bama realizes what the hell he's really talking about...hopefully he'll never get the chance to express himself in the executive branch.
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Old 08-04-2008, 02:53 PM   #5
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Default RE: What Is a 'Windfall' Profit?

Still, given current conditions, one wonders why the oil companies are putting so much of their profits into stock buy back programs instead of exploration/research/development. So maybe it's more a matter of what they do with those profits rather than the percentages? I don't know.


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Old 08-04-2008, 03:37 PM   #6
 
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Default RE: What Is a 'Windfall' Profit?

FM, that is the lameist article I have seen, totally bias. The profit is off the backs of a struggling Public. The oil companies have plenty of money to do research and developement, they even have thousands of new well's capped. The intent is not to lower prices, but to gain access. This is prhaps the smartest stock I have ever seen.. yes is
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Old 08-04-2008, 09:15 PM   #7
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Default RE: What Is a 'Windfall' Profit?

Quote:
Still, given current conditions, one wonders why the oil companies are putting so much of their profits into stock buy back programs instead of exploration/research/development. So maybe it's more a matter of what they do with those profits rather than the percentages? I don't know.
Very wise choice right now in what they are doing. Number one, Exxon doesn't do the drilling. It's the oil field services companies that do the actual drilling. So if you have a little bit of cash for investing, look into those types of companies. Your in Dallas and their all around you. The price of oil is going down but the radar for demand is high right now. Those companies are independent of oil prices because we need to find new resources. This weekend there was also talk about the few compainies that make the oil rigs. They will boom in the next few years. Second, Their stock is sitting very cheap out there in the market place and is ripe for take over. You have a weak dollar, lots of out standing shares and a very bright outlook right now for energy demand. They would be stupid not to pick up the open shares on the market. If they choose not to, they risk a hostile take over.

Rainmaker:
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FM, that is the lameist article I have seen, totally bias. The profit is off the backs of a struggling Public. The oil companies have plenty of money to do research and developement, they even have thousands of new well's capped. The intent is not to lower prices, but to gain access. This is prhaps the smartest stock I have ever seen.. yes is
Take a break from you school classes and listening to your professors (I'm willing to give you enough credit that you old enough for college). There is no way you cold be passing school with anything but a "C" with the work you turn in. You completely lack and facts or independent thought on everything you've posted on this site to date. When we ask for facts, you fail to provide them and/or quit the thread. To sit there and say the article was lame when actual numbers are put in front of you, tells me I've given you too much credit for even college level understanding.

Take time out and start doing your homework and ask why before youdecide to make a silly comment like the one you just made.The only thing you do is repeat what someone told you.
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Old 08-05-2008, 04:58 AM   #8
 
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Default RE: What Is a 'Windfall' Profit?

FM, I have laid out the Facts to you, you respond with the same old spin as always on all topics, then answere with insults, this is a common reaction from someone that has been beat at their own game
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Old 08-05-2008, 05:41 AM   #9
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Default RE: What Is a 'Windfall' Profit?

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ORIGINAL: RainmakerIII

FM, I have laid out the Facts to you, you respond with the same old spin as always on all topics, then answere with insults, this is a common reaction from someone that has been beat at their own game
Calling it "the lameist article" is a good way to pointing out facts.
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Ronald Reagan: 'Everybody that is for abortion has already been born'

"I never said I was worth it. I only said I wouldn't do it for less " William F. Buckley Jr.
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Old 08-05-2008, 08:57 AM   #10
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Default RE: What Is a 'Windfall' Profit?

Quote:
ORIGINAL: RainmakerIII

FM, that is the lameist article I have seen, totally bias. The profit is off the backs of a struggling Public. The oil companies have plenty of money to do research and developement, they even have thousands of new well's capped. The intent is not to lower prices, but to gain access. This is prhaps the smartest stock I have ever seen.. yes is
Really a pathetic response. Isn't ALL profit "off the backs of a struggling Public?" So, is it your opinion that we should become a socialist society, where all "profit" is given to the government, to be disbursed to the people as the government sees fit?

There are numerous "facts" in that "lame, totally biased article". And, despite your opinion that it's lame and totally biased, your own response, as usual, is devoid of anything but speculation, buzz words and dailykos talking points.
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