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Old 02-29-2008, 02:24 PM   #1
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Default Trade Tirade This is for you Phil

http://online.wsj.com/public/article_print/SB120424592454501493.html

At an event Monday at George Washington University, a moderator asked four House Democrats if any thought it "practical" or a "good idea" to reopen and renegotiate Nafta. The crew, led by Democratic Caucus head Rahm Emanuel, stared uneasily into the middle distance before submitting "no."
"We'll see if word gets to Ohio," joked the moderator.
It didn't, and that's got some grown-ups in the party nervous. Democrats have been flirting with outright protectionism for some time now -- taking a dip with the "fair trade" movement, cozying up to labor and environmental standards, and shunning trade deals in Congress. It's been a tease, though careful not to let things go too far.
Now they're cornered with the heavy-breathing Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, and some are worried about their reputation. The two presidential nominees, grasping for votes in economically depressed Ohio, are setting new protectionist lows, with calls for trade "time outs" and threats to overthrow Nafta. It's come at a crucial moment for the Democratic Party, which after years of trade wandering now has a shot at defining the issue from the White House.
"I think Lou Dobbs took the pulse of America and realized he could drive his ratings up by engaging in protectionist rhetoric and pandering. I think there are an increasing number of politicians who are also pandering to the less informed emotional impulses of a lot of U.S. voters," says Cal Dooley, a former Democratic congressman from California who helped lead the party to trade victories in the 1990s. "And the thing that is a little distressing to me is that our national leaders, in many respects, they know better."

Democrats do know better, and have for a long time. It was Cordell Hull, FDR's secretary of state, who picked up Hoover's pieces and rebuilt the world trade system in the 1930s. Graduates of the party's old free-trade school know America has a responsibility to lead an open, global market. They know the nation's economic prosperity depends on it. They know isolationism doesn't sell well in elections. And they know the bipartisan trade successes of the Clinton years were a boon for both sides.
That common sense hasn't matched the temptation to win points with Big Labor or to ride a populist anti-trade wave. Threats to hold trade deals hostage to labor and environmental rules; vows to review existing deals; the bashing of Mexican truck drivers; the mauling of the Chinese currency; complaints about trade enforcement -- all of these are today standard Democratic (and increasingly Republican) talking points. The Clinton-Obama threats are a logical conclusion of this, not some surprising beginning.
And yet free-trade Democrats point out that the stakes are arguably higher now than they've ever been, not just for the nation, but for their own party's long-term electoral prospects. Mr. Dooley notes that trade is inextricably tied up with national security, and so it matters more in today's complex world. He points to the Colombia trade pact, currently spinning in Congress, as an example of an agreement that is crucial to keeping a democratic neighbor strong. "If you look at that deal, it is, in most respects, more of a security issue for the United States and Colombia -- one that has some economic benefits as well," he says.
If Democrats wanted be trusted on national security, they've got to underpin their promises with a commitment to trade. "Once you are president of the United States you have to first and foremost protect the security of the United States, and one of the tools that you have to protecting that security is in building strong relationships that are going to be founded on an economic partnership," he says. An "optimist," he's hopeful that the eventual nominee will be able to "walk back" from some of the recent positions by stressing exactly that security point.
Other Democrats are likewise worried this bout of anti-trade fervor risks undercutting the party's key foreign policy plank: that it will do more on the diplomatic front. When asked about the wisdom of reopening Nafta at the university event, Rep. Artur Davis (an Alabama Democrat who happened to be the first congressman outside of Illinois to endorse Mr. Obama) replied: "I'm not a fan for reopening agreements we have negotiated because the rest of the world thinks that we don't keep our word enough as it is."
In other words, it's hard to make nicey-nice with the global community when you are stiffing it on trade. Ask Canadian Finance Minister Jim Flaherty, who clearly tuned into the Ohio Democratic debate long enough to catch Mr. Obama and Mrs. Clinton threatening to withdraw from Nafta unless his country rolled over for their new demands. "[They] should recognize that Nafta benefits the U.S. tremendously. Those who speak of it as helpful to [just the] Canadian and Mexican economies are missing the point," he responded, and not lovingly.
There is, too, the question of Democratic economic leadership. Texas Democrat Henry Cuellar recently hosted Mrs. Clinton on the streets of Laredo. He said he explained to her the city was the largest inland port in the South. Trade has transformed his district's border communities -- dropping double-digit employment and curbing rampant poverty. "My philosophy is simple: trade between the United States and other countries is good. You export, you create jobs, you build relationships," says Mr. Cuellar, who was the first Democrat to endorse the Central American Free Trade Agreement, and one of just 15 to vote for it.
Mr. Cuellar, who is a Mrs. Clinton supporter, says he remains comfortable with what she's asking for in a renegotiated Nafta. (If she'd said "six months after becoming president, I'm just going to opt out, then that would worry me," he explains.) He, too, remains hopeful that the national debate will cool once the primary is over. He warns that while it might be tempting to "demagogue" trade in the short term, Democrats will have to perform on the economy if they want a lasting run in office. Remaining strong on trade is "about both the prosperity of the nation, and the prosperity of the Democratic Party," he says.
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Old 02-29-2008, 05:49 PM   #2
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Default RE: Trade Tirade This is for you Phil

So Field mouse do I assume you aggree with this article................if so it may be the only time weve been on the same page. I'm always amazed at all the cherry picked drivel Lou Dobbs spews.

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Old 02-29-2008, 06:00 PM   #3
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Default RE: Trade Tirade This is for you Phil

I can agree with the security section to some extent but, I am still for fair trade and not free trade..
I can see no reason to allow another country be it China or whoever build our airplanes for example.. There is just noway can I be for it. Right now because of our dollar dropping so bad we do in fact have alot of Canadians coming acroos to buy goods. That will soon be cutting way back because of the border crossing requirements that soon will becoming in place. Couple that with factories closings and heading out of dodge alot of the benefits we see here are only short lived.
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Old 02-29-2008, 06:19 PM   #4
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Default RE: Trade Tirade This is for you Phil

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ORIGINAL: tangozulu

So Field mouse do I assume you aggree with this article................if so it may be the only time weve been on the same page. I'm always amazed at all the cherry picked drivel Lou Dobbs spews.
Absolutely, I'm an open markets free trade guy. I've been studying it for a few years and believe if you can take advantage of whats available to you you will do fine. Should you however fight it and refuse to accept it you will be left behind.

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I am still for fair trade and not free trade..
When you say your for fair trade not free trade your for shooting yourself in the foot. Anything you want the foreign countries to do requires higher price good being sold to us. All this regulation and taxation is causing our companies to seek a cheaper way to run a business as it should be. You may not notice corporation jumping states but it happens everday. Here in NC we are benifitting from California's over regulation. Boeing left Washington for Co (I belive that's where the went to). My biggest company when I had my business in telecommunications left Md for WV because of taxes.
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Old 02-29-2008, 06:48 PM   #5
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Default RE: Trade Tirade This is for you Phil

Quote:
When you say your for fair trade not free trade your for shooting yourself in the foot. Anything you want the foreign countries to do requires higher price good being sold to us. All this regulation and taxation is causing our companies to seek a cheaper way to run a business as it should be. You may not notice corporation jumping states but it happens everday. Here in NC we are benifitting from California's over regulation. Boeing left Washington for Co (I belive that's where the went to). My biggest company when I had my business in telecommunications left Md for WV because of taxes.
I have seen it from up here as Maine has some pretty high taxes due to population and a lot of roads being up kept and the like.. However we are still surviving OK, with less population in a state taxes has to come up to keep things working. I maybe shooting myself in the foot as you say but with so many employed with all these new jobswith decent wages. The cost of buying shouldn't be that bad right? SoI guess what I am saying all these new jobs are low paying jobs and no one can afford to buy much except for the cheaper stuff coming out of places like China or Tiawan? That is why some have to work 2 jobs to make ends meet.. That is sad to say the least..
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Old 02-29-2008, 06:59 PM   #6
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Default RE: Trade Tirade This is for you Phil

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I have seen it from up here as Maine has some pretty high taxes due to population and a lot of roads being up kept and the like.. However we are still surviving OK, with less population in a state taxes has to come up to keep things working. I maybe shooting myself in the foot as you say but with so many employed with all these new jobswith decent wages. The cost of buying shouldn't be that bad right? SoI guess what I am saying all these new jobs are low paying jobs and no one can afford to buy much except for the cheaper stuff coming out of places like China or Tiawan? That is why some have to work 2 jobs to make ends meet.. That is sad to say the least..
There is where your wrong Phil. You all need to lower your taxes to attract more business. If you attract business to locate there you increase your tax base. You need to make it worth there while to relocate in your state. Tell me why in the world I should locate my business in Maine over let's say SC if it would cost me more to operate? Please convince me, because I plan on opening doors on a new business this time next year.
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Old 02-29-2008, 07:29 PM   #7
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Default RE: Trade Tirade This is for you Phil

Some companies get tax breaks to invest and stay here, they get the breaks from towns/cities and state. They also get some aid from Mr. Gov when creating jobs in high un-employment areas. However companies do survive this as testiment check out the greater Bangor/ Brewer areas. Also another area up here that is picking up is the Ellsworth are as well. But most all these jobs being created are still lowend jobs. The pay rate is not that good and for some one trying to get a decent job to make a living out of then good luck to them. Decent paying jobs are going away but the cost of living is still climbing higher and higher. Before it is all said and done who the heck will be buying anything like homes and cars ect... I am glad I am not a young person starting out trying to make ends meet that is for sure.. Can a business be started up here? Yes, absolutely as long as it is something people want..
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Old 02-29-2008, 07:52 PM   #8
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Default RE: Trade Tirade This is for you Phil

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ORIGINAL: Phil from Maine

Some companies get tax breaks to invest and stay here, they get the breaks from towns/cities and state. They also get some aid from Mr. Gov when creating jobs in high un-employment areas. However companies do survive this as testiment check out the greater Bangor/ Brewer areas. Also another area up here that is picking up is the Ellsworth are as well. But most all these jobs being created are still lowend jobs. The pay rate is not that good and for some one trying to get a decent job to make a living out of then good luck to them. Decent paying jobs are going away but the cost of living is still climbing higher and higher. Before it is all said and done who the heck will be buying anything like homes and cars ect... I am glad I am not a young person starting out trying to make ends meet that is for sure.. Can a business be started up here? Yes, absolutely as long as it is something people want..
Then you need to ask your leaders what they are doing to go out and sell their town and labor pool. If it's not enough go for the job. You go out and sell it or create your own business. However, in no way choose the easy way out by scapegoating outsourcing.
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Old 02-29-2008, 10:05 PM   #9
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Default RE: Trade Tirade This is for you Phil

Quote:
ORIGINAL: Fieldmouse

Quote:
ORIGINAL: Phil from Maine

Some companies get tax breaks to invest and stay here, they get the breaks from towns/cities and state. They also get some aid from Mr. Gov when creating jobs in high un-employment areas. However companies do survive this as testiment check out the greater Bangor/ Brewer areas. Also another area up here that is picking up is the Ellsworth are as well. But most all these jobs being created are still lowend jobs. The pay rate is not that good and for some one trying to get a decent job to make a living out of then good luck to them. Decent paying jobs are going away but the cost of living is still climbing higher and higher. Before it is all said and done who the heck will be buying anything like homes and cars ect... I am glad I am not a young person starting out trying to make ends meet that is for sure.. Can a business be started up here? Yes, absolutely as long as it is something people want..
Then you need to ask your leaders what they are doing to go out and sell their town and labor pool. If it's not enough go for the job. You go out and sell it or create your own business. However, in no way choose the easy way out by scapegoating outsourcing.

Don't you think outsourcing benefits the few at the cost of the many ? I'm a capitalist at heart, but I'm seeing something that's kind'a weird. We seem to be the only nation without protections for our workers.
I could be wrong, so I'm open to correction. Also, in my industry (I.T.), I've seen 100k salaries get outsourced to 'points east' for 25-cents on the dollar. Sound business practice to be sure, but it sure kills the guys who built a life in the I.T. industry domestically. I'm somewhat torn on this issue...I favor some worker protections, but with everybody's hands in the pot (government, business, labor, etc...) that makes it a free-for-all and anybody can play. Bottom line is that I cannot compete with a guy who's going to accept 25% of my salary as his pay. Some will say to re-educate...at my age, self-employment is the only way to go and that usually requires seed money and acceptance of risk. Not being a 'spring chicken', my ability to build a business may be somewhat limited. There's lots of guys in my boat. They all survive, sure, but it's a grab for the buck and unless you've been burned, then it's all just fine. So I guess I'm a protectionist, in a minimal sort of way. If my company made me move to Florida, I'd have to go, but I cannot make the move to Bangalore....
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Old 02-29-2008, 10:57 PM   #10
 
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Default RE: Trade Tirade This is for you Phil

I have to say I'm with the FAIR trade, not the completely free trade argument. We should not be getting into free trade agreements unless we can make them somewhat fair. I'm not talking about making these countries pay the same wages as us, etc. but what good is it for (both economically or morally) us to improve our conditions, only to outsource our work to countries that essentially have slave labor and completely decimate the environment. We don't accept those conditions here, so why should we allow ourselves to support those conditions in other places. We shouldn't be telling these countries how to run themselves, however we don't need to give them the benefit of unimpeded access to our markets by doing things that we find unacceptable. We should also enforce the trade agreements we have, in my opinion, the blatant disregard for our intellectual property by China, and their artificial valuation of their currency is not only not "fair" trade, it is not free trade either.
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