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Old 10-10-2007, 09:05 AM   #1
 
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Default Vigilante justice or murder?

There was an incident that happened in a rural community here several weeks ago that has made international headlines.

A man was arrested and charged with possession of child pornography. He apparently had around 900 pictures depicting minors in sexual acts on two CDs. The CDs wound up in the possession of his wife's family members, who reported him to authorities. After an investigation by an Internet Crimes Task Force out of neighboring Knoxville, he was arrested. He had prior convictions from several years ago from Ohio, where he was charged with sex crimes against his wife's sister's one-year-old and four-year-old daughters. He was not on a sex offender registry in Ohio or Tennessee, for whatever reason.

After a few weeks in jail, he was released, presumably on bail. The explanation given by our local sheriff's department was that he had been released because he was in the final stages with a plea deal with the D.A.'s office. Since they let him out, we assumed that plea deal included no jail time . . . and, in fact, this past Monday he pled guilty and received five years probation. Whether he should've received prison time is another argument entirely.

Four days after he was released from jail las month, two of his neighbors got together and decided to burn his house down to chase him out of the neighborhood. Investigators say that several other neighbors in the extremely poor neighborhood urged the two men to go ahead with their plans. Shortly after midnight, a fire began at the front of the residence. The rear door of the residence had been nailed shut sometime prior to all of this happening, apparently by the home's owner. The fire quickly engulfed the front of the home, trapping the man and his wife inside. They would've both died, but a neighbor kicked in the rear door, allowing the sex offender to escape. His wife had already collapsed at this point. The husband and an officer arriving on the scene revived her, but she died a short time later.

From the men's statements to investigators, they did not intend for anyone to be hurt in the fire; they simply wanted to run them out of the neighborhood. But Tennessee law says that if someone dies in a fire, it's murder if you intended to set the fire, whether or not you intended for someone to be killed. So both men are charged with first degree murder.

Last night, Nancy Grace "” who is to journalists as Michael Moore is to Democrats "” featured this on her program. I was invited on as a guest, but did not have the time to leave home and drive to a television studio. It's probably a good thing for her, because I wouldn't have played along with her sensationalizing, embellishing style . . . and I don't think she would've liked that.

Anyway, Grace says that an innocent woman died because of what her husband did. In fact, I think her exact words were, "She lost her life because of more of [his] behavior."

What do you think?

My thinking is that I wouldn't want this guy living next to my children. But we have laws and a judicial system in this country for a reason. The way I see it isn't that an innocent woman died because her husband was a pedophile, but that an innocent woman died because two criminals figured they would decide for themselves what punishment is appropriate for this guy. Another line of thinking seems to be that if the woman had lived and her perverted husband had died, it would've been okay. Well, no, it still wouldn't have been okay. It still would've been murder.

Now, if one of these two men had a child who was a victim of the sex offender, then I would find it harder to blame them.
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Old 10-10-2007, 09:12 AM   #2
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Default RE: Vigilante justice or murder?

Nancy Grace is scum, IMO.
The wife is not dead because of her husband's actions. She's dead because of vigilantes' actions. Even if the vigilantes were morally right ... heck, even if they were legally right, they killed the wife by their careless plan.

If this guy were sentenced to death, and the executioner somehow mistakenly killed the wife, it would not be the husband's fault.


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Old 10-10-2007, 09:12 AM   #3
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Default RE: Vigilante justice or murder?

Quote:
ORIGINAL: BenGarrett

My thinking is that I wouldn't want this guy living next to my children. But we have laws and a judicial system in this country for a reason. The way I see it isn't that an innocent woman died because her husband was a pedophile, but that an innocent woman died because two criminals figured they would decide for themselves what punishment is appropriate for this guy. Another line of thinking seems to be that if the woman had lived and her perverted husband had died, it would've been okay. Well, no, it still wouldn't have been okay. It still would've been murder.

Now, if one of these two men had a child who was a victim of the sex offender, then I would find it harder to blame them.
I agree with this.
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Old 10-10-2007, 09:24 AM   #4
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Default RE: Vigilante justice or murder?

Quote:
Now, if one of these two men had a child who was a victim of the sex offender, then I would find it harder to blame them.
Oh what a tangled web we weave.

Murder is OK when ? When Ben thinks so ?

Do any of you see this as people driven to extremes because of the failure of the courts to protect those whom need it most.


My self see this as a case where idiots met opportunity and both took sad advantage of the situation.

I can also say with pure honesty had any of my family members been victims of this guy nothing would ever be heard from him again.
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Old 10-10-2007, 09:42 AM   #5
 
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Default RE: Vigilante justice or murder?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: bawanajim

Murder is OK when ?Â* When Ben thinks so ?
I didn't say it was OK. Legally, it wouldn't be OK. It would still be murder. But human nature would cause me to have a hard time blaming them. Would you blame them? Apparently not, since you said that you would kill him if he had victimized one of your family members.
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Old 10-10-2007, 09:47 AM   #6
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Default RE: Vigilante justice or murder?

Quote:
ORIGINAL: BenGarrett

Quote:
ORIGINAL: bawanajim

Murder is OK when ? When Ben thinks so ?
since you said that you would kill him if he had victimized one of your family members.
"Kill" is a not the word I used ,it is by the way a very nice way of putting it.
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Old 10-10-2007, 10:43 AM   #7
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Default RE: Vigilante justice or murder?

First off,
I am VERY DISAPPOINTED Ben,that you were not able to use an opportunity to publicallydisagreewith one of these political/legal hacks. That would have been great no matter what the subject matter.

Secondly, I think BwanA brings up an excellent point:

Quote:
Do any of you see this as people driven to extremes because of the failure of the courts to protect those whom need it most.
I'm not saying what they did was right and unfortunately, the law is the law in this PARTICULAR case, but, I wish the men could have been a bit more precise in their planning and either just burned down the house (and of course this would still havehad aneffect on the wife), or burned the house and killed the guy,or just killed the guy.

Ifany of those had been the case then I personally would never convict the perpetrators to 1 second of jail time

I think capital punishment should be mandatory for pedophiles (I know that's not the particular issue here).

I also believe in (I think the term, help me out here attorneys) jury nullification. That is, imo, if I don't believe a crime (killing a pedophile)should be against the law, I will never convict someone for breaking that law.

Still, in this case the men messed up and should be punished, although something was wrong with that woman too if she knew her husband was a sex offender and she was still around.
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Old 10-10-2007, 10:59 AM   #8
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Default RE: Vigilante justice or murder?

Quote:
From the men's statements to investigators, they did not intend for anyone to be hurt in the fire; they simply wanted to run them out of the neighborhood. But Tennessee law says that if someone dies in a fire, it's murder if you intended to set the fire, whether or not you intended for someone to be killed. So both men are charged with first degree murder.
Sounds pretty clear cut to me, you can't justify a crime by saying "I didn't mean to...", regardless of your rationale.

I don't like the fact that several sex offenders live within 5 miles of my home according to the county sheriff's website, but I'm not about to risk killing them simply because I don't care for their presense. There was a recent case in Tennessee where a woman found out that a neighbor had raped her 14 year old daughter twice in 5 years. She drove to his place of work, confronted him with the accusation, then shot him 10 times because he laughed at her. She had to reload to fire the second five shots, but a jury let her off with a 6 month sentence because of the "extenuating circumstances". A juror was quoted as saying that if she hadn't reloaded they would have aquitted her instead. I finally found a link to the story:
Murder or vigilate justice?
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Old 10-10-2007, 07:58 PM   #9
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Default RE: Vigilante justice or murder?

Vigilante justice and murder often go hand-in-hand. This was clearly first degree murder under the law. I have sme sympathy for those who run child molesters out of town, but for crying out loud, learn to do it right.
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Old 10-10-2007, 10:09 PM   #10
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Default RE: Vigilante justice or murder?

It sounds like that town or county should elect a new DA and a new judge and vote out the current irresponsible people holding those positions. Child molesters and child pornographers should not get "just probation" at any time. I did one child molesting case (a single incident) where the Deputy DA let the guy take a plea bargain for 16 years in prison. THAT is the type of plea bargain these predator scum should get, not probation.[:@]

The 2 guys did commit a felony (arson) and in the process killed somebody through their careless and stupid actions. They are legally deemed to have committed murder just as if they robbed a bank and somebody died in the process.
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