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Old 07-30-2007, 11:40 AM   #1
 
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Default War critics see improvement in Iraq

This is on the same subject as the last post I made on Iraq, but that thread was getting conjested with bickering over whether the war was justified to begin with, and I thought this deserved its own mention.

This is from an op-ed piece from today's New York Times. The piece itself isn't as important as who wrote it, two liberal critics of the war.

Quote:

A War We Just Might Win

By MICHAEL E. O"™HANLON and KENNETH M. POLLACK

VIEWED from Iraq, where we just spent eight days meeting with American and Iraqi military and civilian personnel, the political debate in Washington is surreal. The Bush administration has over four years lost essentially all credibility. Yet now the administration"™s critics, in part as a result, seem unaware of the significant changes taking place.

Here is the most important thing Americans need to understand: We are finally getting somewhere in Iraq, at least in military terms. As two analysts who have harshly criticized the Bush administration"™s miserable handling of Iraq, we were surprised by the gains we saw and the potential to produce not necessarily "śvictory"ť but a sustainable stability that both we and the Iraqis could live with.

After the furnace-like heat, the first thing you notice when you land in Baghdad is the morale of our troops. In previous trips to Iraq we often found American troops angry and frustrated "” many sensed they had the wrong strategy, were using the wrong tactics and were risking their lives in pursuit of an approach that could not work.

Today, morale is high. The soldiers and marines told us they feel that they now have a superb commander in Gen. David Petraeus; they are confident in his strategy, they see real results, and they feel now they have the numbers needed to make a real difference.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/30/op...in&oref=slogin
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Old 07-30-2007, 11:44 AM   #2
 
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Default RE: War critics see improvement in Iraq

Improvement?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070730/...nUrInSer1vaA8F
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Old 07-30-2007, 11:59 AM   #3
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Default RE: War critics see improvement in Iraq

It ain't improved for the Jordanians, Egyptians, Lebanese, and Syrianswho have to support2.5 million Iraqi refugees.

Yep, FM i know that it is from the AP not FAUX news, that alone makes it suspect in your mind.

"AP)Jordan and Syria complained Thursday they have been abandoned by the West to deal with the massive burden of more than 2 million Iraqi refugees who have fled the violence in their homeland.

Both countries issued urgent calls for help at a conference on Iraqi refugees, specifically expanded resettlement opportunities in the West and financial assistance.

Milad Atiya, the Syrian ambassador to Jordan and head of his country's delegation to the conference, said the international community "must be involved, especially the United States because its policy led to the plight the Iraqis are currently in and it bears responsibility."

Jordanian Interior Ministry Secretary-General Mukheimar Abu-Jamous argued that Western nations "relinquished their responsibility in shouldering the Iraqi refugee burden, and we urge them to rise to their obligation and resettle the largest number possible of those Iraqis."

The influx of 750,000 Iraqis is costing Jordan $1 billion a year in basic services, Abu-Jamous told the gathering in the Jordanian capital. He also said the Iraqis posed security concerns for Jordan, which experienced its worst terror attack in 2005 when Iraqi suicide bombers linked to al Qaeda in Iraq killed 60 people at three Amman hotels.

Jordan has since tightened its residency regulations, and all Iraqis must undergo thorough background checks.

Some 1.5 million Iraqis have also fled to Syria and 200,000 to both Egypt and Lebanon, driven out of Iraq by the turmoil that followed the U.S.-led invasion in 2003 that toppled Saddam Hussein.

By contrast, the United States has only accepted 133 Iraqi refugees so far, citing security concerns, but it recently announced it will resettle some 7,000 more by the end of September.

"The U.S. offer to take in 7,000 refugees is symbolic," said Iraqi Deputy Foreign Minister Mohammed Haji Hmoud. "This is not a solution. Seven thousand is nothing."

Delegates from the U.S. and other countries at the conference declined to comment.

According to the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees, about 50,000 people continue to flee Iraq every month, mostly to Jordan and Syria. An additional 2 million Iraqis are believed to be displaced within their own country.

Suzanne Saleh Mohammed, a Syrian clothing store clerk visiting Amman, told The Associated Press that her countrymen are "very angry that so many Iraqis are coming into Syria."

"They make many problems in Syria, they're opening up nightclubs, some of their women work as prostitutes and crime is on the rise," she said Thursday.

Meanwhile, the Washington-based Refugees International and a consortium of 36 international advocacy and aid organizations urged governments in a letter sent out Thursday to "dramatically" increase aid to countries hosting Iraqi refugees.


"We would also like to see the Iraqi government provide substantial assistance for the region," the group's Kristele Younes said.

In April, Iraq pledged $25 million to help displaced Iraqis at a similar conference in Geneva, but London-based human rights group Amnesty International said the money has not yet materialized.

Amnesty issued a statement criticizing Iraq for failing to follow through on its pledge, saying "this is a crisis that was made in Iraq, not in Syria or Jordan, and the Iraqi authorities have a duty now to help its neighbors meet the needs of Iraqis who have been displaced."

Hmoud did not respond to journalists' questions in Amman about the pledge.

Amnesty also called on the U.S. and other developed nations to increase their resettlement efforts for refugees.

"Their assistance must constitute a significant part of the solution to this terrible crisis," said Malcolm Smart, head of Amnesty's Middle East and North Africa Program.

The group said it visited Syria, where its delegates interviewed many Iraqis who had been tortured and in some cases raped. Most are traumatized, with little hope of receiving treatment, Amnesty said.

"Many refugees said they received no food and that their savings had dried up," the group said.

The statement said some Iraqi refugees have even resorted to forcing their daughters into prostitution to help their families survive."


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/07/26/world/main3100629.shtml
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Old 07-30-2007, 12:51 PM   #4
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Default RE: War critics see improvement in Iraq

Hey, Falcon, what exactly does refugees who have left the fighting have to do with improvement in Iraq.

Also I asked this before but you may have missed this question.

Since you have experience as an Army trainer, How long does it take to build an effective fighting force from the ground up?How long does it take to route out the bad guys when you have no records to go by? How long does it take to establish the chain of command?
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Old 07-30-2007, 01:03 PM   #5
 
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Default RE: War critics see improvement in Iraq

Until we can stop partisan bickering on BOTH sides and make an honest assessment of what's happening on the ground in Iraq, there will never be any hope of a positive resolution over there. Frankly, I'm tired of the talking points from the let's-stay-the-course crowd and the let's-bring-them-home crowd alike.
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Old 07-30-2007, 02:14 PM   #6
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Default RE: War critics see improvement in Iraq

Quote:
ORIGINAL: BenGarrett

Until we can stop partisan bickering on BOTH sides and make an honest assessment of what's happening on the ground in Iraq, there will never be any hope of a positive resolution over there. Frankly, I'm tired of the talking points from the let's-stay-the-course crowd and the let's-bring-them-home crowd alike.
You'd see faster results like watching grass grow. When the leadership of the Dems refuse to meet withthe military commander they voted for and endorsed, what do you expect?
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Old 07-30-2007, 02:48 PM   #7
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Default RE: War critics see improvement in Iraq

"Since you have experience as an Army trainer, How long does it take to build an effective fighting force from the ground up?"

It is entirely possible to build a viable fighting force within a couple of years or less:You cannot do it whenthey are a bunch of factionilizedfolks whose loyalty is to their tribal sheiks and their religious sect. Look how fast the US ramped up the military in WWII.

There ain't any concept of democracy in the Arab world. A democracy is a threat to the existing order of things. Even Saddam Hussein respected the tribal sheiks-Sunnis, of course.

"How long does it take to route out the bad guys when you have no records to go by?"

Rooting out the bad guys is of little consequence when you do not have enough boots on the ground to secure the area your troops just fought and died for.

"How long does it take to establish the chain of command?"

Not very long unless you disband the existing military of the country you are going to train to fight.

"Until we can stop partisan bickering on BOTH sides and make an honest assessment of what's happening on the ground in Iraq, there will never be any hope of a positive resolution over there."

Ben, i totally agree. However, it just might be impossible to ever get an accurate and honest assessment of what is happening on the ground. Too many folks have staked out claims on both sides. It may be the case that institutionalized lying is again in voguewith seniormilitary generals: This was the case in Viet Nam.Several generals have lied about a friendly fire incident involving Tillman.

No, we cannot just up and leavewithout first either partitioning Iraq or consolidating power in some sort of tribunal. The current Shiite ran government is not going to fly.

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Old 07-30-2007, 04:06 PM   #8
 
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Default RE: War critics see improvement in Iraq

Just got this E mail what do you think?


New York Post
July 26, 2007

[/align]
Winning In Iraq

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And losing in Washington

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By Ralph Peters

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To a military professional, the tactical progress made in Iraq over the last few months is impressive. To a member of Congress, it's an annoyance.

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The herd animals on Capitol Hill - from both parties - just can't wait to go over the cliff on Iraq. And even when the media mention one or two of the successes achieved by our troops, the reports are grudging.

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Yet what's happening on the ground, right now, in Baghdad and in Iraq's most-troubled provinces, contributes directly to your security. In the words of a senior officer known for his careful assessments, al Qaeda's terrorists in Iraq are "on their back foot and we're trying to knock them to their knees."

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Do our politicians really want to help al Qaeda regain its balance?

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Gen. David Petraeus and his deputies sharply prioritized the threats we face in Iraq : Al Qaeda is No. 1, and Iran's Shia proxies are No. 2. Our troops hunt them relentlessly. And we don't face our enemies alone: Iraq's security forces have begun to pick up their share of the fight.

[/align]
A trusted source in Baghdad confirmed several key developments that have gone largely unreported. Here's what's been happening while "journalists" focused on John Edwards' haircuts:

[/align]
* Al Qaeda lost the support of Iraq's Sunni Arabs. The fanatics over-reached: They murdered popular sheiks, kidnapped tribal women for forced marriages, tried to outlaw any form of joy and (perhaps most fatally, given Iraqi habits) banned smoking. In response, the Arab version of the Marlboro Man rose up and started cutting terrorist throats.

[/align]
* Since the tribes who once were fighting against us turned on al Qaeda, our troops not only captured the senior Iraqi in the organization - which made brief headlines - but also killed the three al Turki brothers, major-league pinch-hitters al Qaeda sent into Iraq to save the game.

[/align]
Oh, and it emerged that the Iraqi "head" of the terrorists was just a front - in the words of one Army officer, Omar al Baghdadi was "a Wizard of Oz-like creation designed to give an impression that al Qaeda has Iraqis in its senior ranks."

[/align]
* Al Qaeda has been pushed right across Anbar, from the once Wild West to the province's eastern fringes. The terrorists are still dug in elsewhere, from the DiyalaRiverValley to a few Baghdad neighborhoods - but, to quote that senior officer again, "our forces have been taking out their leaders faster than they can find qualified replacements."

[/align]
Even the Democrats yearning to become president admit, when pressed, that al Qaeda's a threat to America. So why didn't even one of them praise the success of our troops during their last debate?

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But let's be fair: Congressional Republicans, terrified of losing their power and glory and precious perks, haven't rushed to applaud our progress, either. They'll give up Iraq , as long as they don't have to give up earmarks.

[/align]
* It isn't only al Qaeda taking serious hits. After briefly showing the flag, Muqtada al-Sadr fled back to Iran again, trailed by his senior deputies. Mookie's No. 2 even moved his family to Iran. Why? Though he's been weak in the past, Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki is now green-lighting Iraqi operations against the Jaish al Mahdi, the Mookster's "Mahdi Army."

[/align]
With its descent into criminality and terror, the Mahdi Army, too, has been losing support among Iraqis - in this case, among Shias.

[/align]
And Iraq 's security forces increasingly carry the fight to the militia:

[/align]
* The Iraqi Police Tactical Support Unit in Nasiriyah came under attack by Mahdi Army elements accustomed to intimidating their enemies. Supported by a brave (and tiny) U.S. advisory team, the police commandos fought them off. Instead of a walkover, the militia thugs hit a wall - and got hammered by air strikes, for good measure. Then the Iraqi police counter-attacked. The Mahdi Army force begged for negotiations.

[/align]
* In Mosul , Iraqi army and police units stuck to their guns through a series of tough combat engagements, with the result that massive arms caches were seized from the terrorists and insurgents. In Kirkuk , Iraqi police reacted promptly to last week's gruesome car-bombing - in time to stop two other car bombs from reaching their intended targets.

[/align]
* In Baghdad, the surge isn't only about American successes - Iraqi security and intelligence forces conducted a series of hard-hitting operations against both al Qaeda and Iran-backed Special Group terrorists.

[/align]
What were you, the American people, told about all this? Well, The New Republic published a pack of out-of-the-ballpark lies concocted by a scammer claiming to be a grunt in Baghdad. Our soldiers, he wrote, spent their time playing games with babies' skulls, running over dogs for fun and mocking disfigured women in their mess hall.

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Anyone who knows our troops or has visited Iraq could instantly spot the absurdities in this smear and the soldiers in the unit denied that any of it happened - but The New Republic (which refuses to produce its source) isn't exactly staffed by military veterans.

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The editors wanted to believe evil about our men and women in uniform, and ended up doing evil to our troops. (Those editors ought to be sentenced to spend August in Baghdad with the infantrymen they defamed, cleaning out military port-a-johns in the 130-degree heat.)

[/align]
Is success suddenly guaranteed in Iraq ? Of course not. The situation's still a bloody mess. But it's also more encouraging than it's been since the summer of 2003, when the downward slide began.

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Gen. Dave Petraeus and his subordinate commanders are by far the best team we've ever had in place in that wretched country. They're doing damned near everything right - with austere resources, despite the surge. And they're being abandoned by your elected leaders.

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Maybe the next presidential primary debate should be held in Baghdad .

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Ralph Peters' book, "Wars Of Blood And Faith: The Conflicts That Will Shape the Twenty-First Century," is in stores now.

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************************************************** *********************

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Old 07-31-2007, 05:56 AM   #9
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Default RE: War critics see improvement in Iraq

CNN reported that the Iraq Parliament has started their 30 day vacation to get out of the "heat". Our boys are still there of course keeping them all safe in 115 degree heat and wearing 80 pounds of body armor. It appears to me that this new government is just looking for a free ride from the US and we are obliging. How can they measure progress in an atmosphere like that. [:@]
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Old 07-31-2007, 06:56 AM   #10
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Default RE: War critics see improvement in Iraq

Can anyone tell me why the US isfighting another mans' war and what is the purpose of the UN? Innocent people are over there dying and for what? I think its time that the US putits pride aside and look for alternative solutions because you cant defeat an enemy that you cant see.
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