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Old 07-23-2007, 12:27 PM   #1
 
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Default I'm almost ready to say give it up in Iraq

I'll explain my stance, and then I have a question.

We've probably debated this subject more than any other on this forum over the past couple of years. I've maintained, and still do, that the war in Iraq was justified. Based on the evidence that we had, there was sufficient reason to invade Iraq. Democrats, Republicans and a majority of the American people agreed on that. I do not think that the Bush administration lied to get us to war. As I've argued many times in the past, if the Bush administration is guilty of lying to make its case on Iraq, the Democrats were also guilty since they controlled the Senate Intelligence Committee at the time that Congress approved the war, and since the Clinton administration was making the same case against Iraq just a few short years earlier.

The war itself was a thing of sheer awe. The speed with which we overthrew the Iraqi regime may exceed any other such overthrow in modern warfare. The aftermath of the initial combat phase, however, was very poorly mismanaged. I do not think that the president is necessarily to blame for that. But since he was in the White House, he must accept the blame.

Now we have the so-called "troop surge" in place. And many accounts from the boots on the ground are that it is working. But commanders and experts warn that its results will not be realized overnight. I'm continually troubled by the American news media's coverage of the war in Iraq. For example, a couple of weeks ago there was a report released to Congress by the White House that assessed 18 benchmarks that had been set forth in Iraq. It found that sufficient progress had been made on 8 of the 18 benchmarks, while insufficient progress had been made on 8 of the 18 benchmarks. Granted, I didn't read every news report about the report, but of those I did read, Fox News Channel was the only media outlet to make it clear that these benchmarks are security and political benchmarks set forth for the Iraqi government, NOT for American forces on the ground in Iraq. Most of the news reports only made mention of that fact deep into the story, or not at all if they were short news articles. And after reading the report for myself, I found that some of the important security benchmarks were among those judged as showing sufficient progress, while some of the less-important political benchmarks were among those judged as showing insufficient progress.

With that said, I have to wonder about an Iraqi parliament that has a deadline by which these benchmarks must be met, has a nation that is arguably on the brink of civil war, yet decides to take the month of August off because of the heat. And all the while our troops are beating the streets in full combat gear in an effort to flush out insurgents on THEIR behalf, so that the IRAQI PEOPLE may be more secure. The parliament's action is a slap in the face to our troops in Iraq and it makes me wonder just how much these people are really interested in a stable country.

I'm also growing weary of seeing more and more news accounts of American troops being killed by IEDs, roadside bombs and ambushes. For four years now, we've been fighting post-major combat operations and we've zero progress to show for it. We move into a town, secure the town, then move out and the Iraqi forces cannot hold it and the insurgents take it over once again. Clearly, the Iraqi forces are not prepared to hold their own country.

It's time to put up or shut up, in my opinion. The current debates in Congress are meaningless and juvenile, in my opinion, as are Senator Reid's slumber parties. Congress previously agreed on a September progress report, so let's wait until September for that progress report. That'll give the "surge" a couple more months to work. But when General Petreus testifies before Congress in September, if there isn't proof that the surge is working, and that identifiable progress will continue to be made, and made steadily, I'll have to join the growing majority of American people who are ready for American troops to pull out of Iraq. The consequences to us, long-term, will not be good, I'm afraid. We will have left an environment in Iraq that is unstable and more conducive to terrorism than what we started with. al Qaeda will find themselves a safe haven in Iraq similar to what they had in Afghanistan. The consequences to the Iraqi people, short-term, will be even greater. Folks in Iraq are finally becoming fed up with the barbarity of al Qaeda and starting to help American troops root out these terrorists. If we leave, we're leaving them subject to massacre just like we promised them and left them in Gulf War I, when Bush senior committed one of the greatest travesties of modern American government, in my opinion.

Still, if it ain't working, it ain't working. Count me among the impatient. I want to see clear proof of progress.

If you took the effort to read through all that, here is my question. And this is primarily for those who believe we should still be in Iraq. We've heard many times from those who think we should come home yesterday. My question is this: At what point, or do you ever, say that the time has arrived for America to quit Iraq, come home, and let what happens happen?
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Old 07-23-2007, 01:04 PM   #2
 
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Default RE: I'm almost ready to say give it up in Iraq

In my opinion it will be clearly time, if we gain total stability and the Iraqi Army is competent to take over, or when we settle for "good enough is good enough."
Again in my opinion, I think that we should be able to "expect" to be able to down-size our troops numbers/involvement in the near future, but likely need to keep some sort of significant presence for at least a couple years yet.
we will never achieve total stability and control.
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Old 07-23-2007, 01:35 PM   #3
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Default RE: I'm almost ready to say give it up in Iraq

Quote:
With that said, I have to wonder about an Iraqi parliament that has a deadline by which these benchmarks must be met, has a nation that is arguably on the brink of civil war, yet decides to take the month of August off because of the heat. And all the while our troops are beating the streets in full combat gear in an effort to flush out insurgents on THEIR behalf, so that the IRAQI PEOPLE may be more secure. The parliament's action is a slap in the face to our troops in Iraq and it makes me wonder just how much these people are really interested in a stable country.
Although I'm not answering your question Ben, I feel that the symptoms in the quote above are some of the biggest stumbling blocks when it comes to democratic "success" in Iraq. I think that most of the people over there just can not grasp a "big picture". I think they can grasp concepts like "my house", "my neighborhood", and "my community" but not "my country" as is shown on a current map. You have to think of where most of these people have come from. Generations of transient or semi-settled lifestyles with constant tribal"in-fighting". I think that Unification for the good of allis just a foreign concept that they will not be able to grasp anytime soon
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Old 07-23-2007, 02:27 PM   #4
 
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Default RE: I'm almost ready to say give it up in Iraq

Only comment I can say so far on that is, Our soldiersare traned to be fighting machines and not police officers. When they try to change them from a fighting machine to a police officer still wearing military uniforms. Not good.

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Old 07-23-2007, 02:35 PM   #5
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Default RE: I'm almost ready to say give it up in Iraq

Well while you make good points. I'm not ready to give up in the least. First off being, what's the alternative? How long and what are the bench marks for the alternative for us to declare plan "B" pull out and surrender is working? The second point being, we shifted big gears here with this surge. We tried the diplomatic way too soon after the war. We did it Bremmer's way and whoever the idiot was before him. They have to defeat Al Qaeda first and relieve the preassure fromAl Qaedabeing there. The diplomatic process will work out but not while Al Qaeda is blowing up people, taking over areas and baking 11 year old boys to feed to their families. Remember this new direction we are under going is only months old and already we have been getting good reports of Sunnis turning against them, their leaders being killed and/or captured, attacks are down.

What's going on in this country? Nothing but politics. Our glourous leaders of the Democrate party, who care so much about our troops, don't have the time to meet with the Generals incharge. Time and time again they have ducked every meeting where they could ask questions and get first hand information. Instead, Harry Reid would rather pull a photo op. That last all night slumber party, wasn't even. Those idiots went home and returned 5 am. I would say this years House and Senate are just what we want because they haven't gotten anything done, but ear marks are through the roof now. I though that was going to end?

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Old 07-23-2007, 03:39 PM   #6
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Default RE: I'm almost ready to say give it up in Iraq

What is that sound...listen closely everyone to hear the muted sound of one man's clapping direct from the shores of Lake Champlain in Vermont. I know it is a difficult thought process Ben but it appears you have expressed yourself in much the same way as a lot of us have and done it well. Nice job even though it was said with some trepidation. What we all want is for this whole thing to end properly within the context of what we originally wanted to accomplish. All actions once started have to end.
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Old 07-23-2007, 05:54 PM   #7
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Default RE: I'm almost ready to say give it up in Iraq

Well said Ben, as far as as your question goes there will be no good time to withdraw.But we cant stay and babysit forever either.Its a nightmare situation and probably an unanswerable question unless your afflicted with tunnel vision and can only see Al Quieda as the problem as at least one of our members is so fond of doing.

To many differences in culture, to many factions, and a totally foriegn concept such as democrasy being thrust on them suddenly has made me seriously doubt theyll ever be one united country, theyre long history of violence against one another leads me to believe theyll never share power and trust each other to the extent thats needed for this to work.A lack of planning on our part and underestimating the post war violence level along with the stay the course mentality weve seen for the last several years and a seeming unwillingness to change tactics to get on top of the problem have given the insurgents and terrorists to much time to get a foothold in the country and copounded theproblem.And last the new Iraqi govts inability to accomplish anything meaningfull and the level of corruption we have seen in thier police forces and military have just about made it a lost cause IMO.Its just been one blunder after another and its all added up to what we have today.Pulling out may not be the best answer but if things dont turn around soon it may be the only realistic one[&o]


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Old 07-23-2007, 09:12 PM   #8
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Default RE: I'm almost ready to say give it up in Iraq

Yes, US troops are doing a very fine job takingIraq from theterrorists. There are not enough US troops to hold the areas after they are taken: This is the big catch 22; the Iraqi armyeither shows up with too few troops to hold the area just takenby US troops or does not show up at all. In one recent operation 11,000 Iraqi troops were supposed to take part, 1,500 showed up.

The so called Iraqi army is really not an army at all. It is a looseconfederation of ethnic and tribal militias.No Arab army has ever been worth it's salt save fora very fewJordanian and Egyptian units. ihave a lot of experiencetraining Arab troops, i can tell you that it is the ultimate experience in frustration.

If the Iraqi army does not drastically improve within theyear then it is time to pull the plug.
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Old 07-24-2007, 04:28 AM   #9
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Default RE: I'm almost ready to say give it up in Iraq

Quote:
ORIGINAL: falcon

Yes, US troops are doing a very fine job takingIraq from theterrorists. There are not enough US troops to hold the areas after they are taken: This is the big catch 22; the Iraqi armyeither shows up with too few troops to hold the area just takenby US troops or does not show up at all. In one recent operation 11,000 Iraqi troops were supposed to take part, 1,500 showed up.

The so called Iraqi army is really not an army at all. It is a looseconfederation of ethnic and tribal militias.No Arab army has ever been worth it's salt save fora very fewJordanian and Egyptian units. ihave a lot of experiencetraining Arab troops, i can tell you that it is the ultimate experience in frustration.

If the Iraqi army does not drastically improve within theyear then it is time to pull the plug.
How old is that story Falcon? Everything I've read has shown improvement on the military front and it's the political front they're now complaining about.
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Old 07-24-2007, 05:26 AM   #10
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Default RE: I'm almost ready to say give it up in Iraq

Quote:
ORIGINAL: falcon


The so called Iraqi army is really not an army at all. It is a looseconfederation of ethnic and tribal militias.No Arab army has ever been worth it's salt save fora very fewJordanian and Egyptian units. ihave a lot of experiencetraining Arab troops, i can tell you that it is the ultimate experience in frustration.

If the Iraqi army does not drastically improve within theyear then it is time to pull the plug.
That pretty much is the story all over the Middle East. A previous business associate of mine spent 2 years during the early 90's in Saudi Arabia organizing and teaching them to rebuild their telecommunications infrastructure. He said it was an extreme exercise in futility. The people he was involved with were very lazy and didn't have the capacity to learn anything technical. The two years became a living nightmare for him. We were there to help but life was dangerous and he was forced to live in an American securecompound. All for the privilege of buying their oil.
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