On the same day there was a report of an escaped convict and a missing mentaly challenged individual. the first to be found was the mentally challenged individual, he was close to fitting the description of the convict. when the cop approached the mentaly challenged kid he was non-responsive. As the cop further approached the kid stuck his hands in his pockets as most mentally challenged people will. Part to do with being nervous and socially sheltered. When the kid did stick his hands in his pocket the cop instantly thought GUN!!!! The kid was shot and died.
My question, should or should not the cop be prosecuted for killing an innocent
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THE HOLE IS MORE HONORABLE THAN THE PATCH
You have to understand the situation police are put under. Did they act inappropriately ? Its hard to say. Why was the guy out by himself anyway ? If he's that mentally retarded he shouldnt' have been. He didn't do what the police told him to do and they shot after repeated warning is my understanding.
An accident and nothing more. Terrible accident .......... but nothing more
I agree with Mind. The Police have to do what they have to do. If they told him to do something and he didn't, then put his hand in his pocket, they had to do it to protect themselves. It is a really sad story. People with mental challenges break my heart anyway, so this story is sad. I wish no one had mental incapacities, but I understand what the Police had to do.
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Member of Team "REAPERS OF THE HARVEST"
i do agree with you both, it is a bad accident. One that i would not want to be on a jury for. The police did what they have been trained to do. If the officer is prosecuted it may cost another officer his life if a similar situation occurs. But yet I wish more could have been done to identify the kid that was shot. This subject really pulls on me for both sides. Like I said, I would hate be on the jury
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THE HOLE IS MORE HONORABLE THAN THE PATCH
This is actually a well-written ansd researched article. Kudos to the reporter for digging through the grand jury report to write this article. After reading the article, several things seem to stick out.
1. The Grand Jury didn't ask any of the officers to testify at the hearing. Although the officers' attorneys may have had them exercise their 5th amendment rights, it is a little odd to make such a critical decision without at least trying to hear all pertinent testimony and evidence. To put this in context, suppose somebody had accused you of a serious crime. Wouldn't you want the cops to at least ask you for your side of the story before deciding on whether to arrest you or not? You may or may not want to talk with them and may decide not to but wouldn't you at least want the opportunity to make that decision for yourself instead of the cops making it for you?
2. Although the grand jury report notes that trooper Norman "disobeyed" the other trooper's instructions to block traffic, the article doesn't state how the grand jury determined this was willful or with knowledge on Trooper Norman's part. He may very well have decided to disobey Trooper Short's instructions or he may have not heard his instructions or he may have had tunnel vision by then. The article doesn't address these possibilities and presumably the grand jury report doesn't either as this article appears to have been written using the grand jury report.
3.The subject who was shot wasn't complying with officers' commands numerous times. We and the grand jury have the luxury of knowing positively that this was the wrong subject, he was developmentally disabled and that he didn't have a weapon. The officers at the scene didn't have this luxury.
4. The idea of using a taser against a subject you suspect has a firearm, is at close range and may shoot at you is not a widely accepted police strategy (just ask any cop you know about this). Tasers have a maximum range of 21-25 feet (depending upon which version you have) and I doubt any of the non-cops on this forum would willingly close within 25 feet of a subject who is refusing to comply with police orders, making furtive and foolish gestures with his hands and who may shoot at you (people on this board aren't dummies). I don't know of any cop who would do so. If I was in such a situation and a fellow cop said he was going to do something this foolish, I would tell him to get back and go get his head straight so he didn't aggravate the situation and possibly get himself killed.
5. The report doesn't state why Trooper Norman left cover and advanced on the subject. I would presume (but certainly do not know) that he thought the subject was beginning to comply with police orders by laying on his back (I personally prefer the stomach) and that other officers were going to advance and take the subject into custody. In such a situation, you ALWAYS have at least one officer covering the subject with a drawn gun. The arresting officer can either have the subject lay down in some sort of position where you can easily gain control, advance and handcuff the subject OR you have the subject walk backwards towards you with his hands clasped behind his head and then handcuff him. As you can easily see, either method has its' own different dangers and no single method is 100% safe. The subject can easily pull out a gun in any method you use and start shooting at the cops because he isn't securely handcuffed yet.
6. We'll never know why Hamley (the subject) said I'm sorry. He may have realized he made mistakes in not obeying police commands or he may simply have just said the first thoguht that popped into his head in such a stressful situation. We just don't know.
7. Norman made no attempt to communicate with other officers. Jurors also questioned why Norman would have his AM / FM car radio so loud that it drowned out his police radio. They questioned why Norman wasn"™t wearing his microphone that connects to his in-car camera and why other officers at the scene turned their microphones off after the shooting. This may be tunnel vision or it may be that Trooper Norman was simply going with the flow of other officers. Anybody who has tried to do 2 or more things simultaneously while under stress will realize that clear and precise communication isn't always easy. It is extremely abnormal for anybody not to have some degree of tunnel vision in a circumstance like this and somebody who claims not to is probably not being entirely truthful. Norman could have said something or asked something of other officers and they simply may not have heard him as they were concentrating on the subject and dealing with whatever level of tunnel vision they were experiencing. Unfortunately for the grand jury, they don't know about this aspect as they chose not to question any of the officers before making their determination.
There may be a lot of reasons why Trooper Norman wasn't wearing his microphone connected to his in-car camera but we don't know. He may have disconnected it while he was taking a break, forgot to put it on, it could have got disconnected while he was getting out of his car in a rush, etc. We don't know because the Grand Jury chose not to ask him.
As for why officers would turn off their microphones after a shooting, I'd like to ask the grand jury a few questions on that. Such as, would they like to have a microphone and tape catching every thing they said after they were in a car accident? After one of their kids got injured in some accident? After anything where they can potentially be sued happens? I doubt even 1 single grand jury member would choose to do that. And if they said yes, I would have serious doubts about them being completely honest.
8. I have more questions than answers after reading this article and think the grand jury would have been well advised to at least try to question the officers before making their decision. Making a decision without all of the facts doesn't do anybody any good and just prolongs the difficult situation. Not to mention that they have a solemn duty and obligation to look at ALL of the facts (or at least attempt to do so) before rendering a decision.
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Jesus Christ--The reason for the season!
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a veteran.
If you're certain you know everything, there's little opportunity to learn anything.
The Mind, G5...what's the difference? I still don't understand why you don't have the balls to speak your mind under one screen name. No one really gives a damn what you say anyway, so just let loose and be yourself. Unless you really are 37 people trapped inside of one brain....
Anyway, the trooper screwed up. The threat of deadly force is one thing, but you don't pull the trigger until there is an indentified counter-threat of deadly force. Moving arms and rolling on the pavement will not kill an officer, and so the officer in question had no business escalating the situation by firing at the suspect.
The Mind, G5...what's the difference? I still don't understand why you don't have the balls to speak your mind under one screen name. No one really gives a damn what you say anyway, so just let loose and be yourself. Unless you really are 37 people trapped inside of one brain....
I Joined HNI 3/16/2006, i am not the THE MIND i have never used another screen name. At what point do you think i dont have the balls speak my view. Maybe it was because i said it this issue pulls me in both directions. i dont feel the place to make a decision on this one way or another. I posted this out of curiousity due the fact it has been a conversation i have heard much of and wanted to hear some other views. anyway think what you willAUGHT SIX. your opinion will not keepfrommy entertainment during a slow work day.
oh yeah..........Deleted by CalHunter...
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THE HOLE IS MORE HONORABLE THAN THE PATCH
It does not say how many cops were presant but there were many.
The shooter walks out from the protection of his car and puts him self in harms way.
Retarded man tries to roll over as ordered and is shot & killed.
The shooter " A trainedprofessional" Disobeys orders , does not have radio on his body, has patrol radio drowned out by music, approachs shoots and kills a retarded man.No other officers fire a shot. All of them turn radios off, what was being said? Who was being blamed. It looks like this cop made more mistakes than the dead man.
Sounds to me like some hotshot with a gun murdered a retarded man in cold blood as he layed in the street.
I thought it was "To serve and to protect." or what about "innocent until proven guilty."
There are bad cops ,just like bad doctors , bad lawyers ,and bad Wal mart shelve stockers.
I Joined HNI 3/16/2006, i am not the THE MIND i have never used another screen name. At what point do you think i dont have the balls speak my view. Maybe it was because i said it this issue pulls me in both directions. i dont feel the place to make a decision on this one way or another. I posted this out of curiousity due the fact it has been a conversation i have heard much of and wanted to hear some other views. anyway think what you willAUGHT SIX. your opinion will not keepfrommy entertainment during a slow work day.
what do you think should happen??
