I edited the following post from the "The Dilemma" thread. (I only edited the post for grammer and spelling) http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=1420781
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There is another student in my class that wants to be a conservation officer (or an environmental worker). In class he sits in front of me. We talked about illegal fishing (snagging) and un-ethical hunting. He said "I don"t care about illegal snagging or other un-ethical fishing issues such as people catching bass while the bass are on the spawning beds". I told him he should report people that do that. He just offered excuses for his own un-ethical fishinghabits.
I then explained that I felt he was wrong and explained why.
Another subject that came up is un-ethical hunting such asshooting small game just for kicks (Squirrels and rabbits and such).
He said he has no ethical concerns doing it. He said he shoots rabbits all the time but has no use for them; he just does it for kicks. A friend of mine called me a "tree-hugger" because of the position I took against such un-ethical behavior. My friend said he also shoots rabbits and such just for kicks.
The thing that bothers me is that, that isn"t how I was taught nor is it how I will teach people in the future. I shoot crows, which we dispose of properly and I shoot carp with a bow. I shoot carp to conserve the natural freshwater fisheries that the carp overtake. (I shoot the crows just for kicks).
The problem is grade point averages (the class is environmental science).
He has a class GPA of 95 while mine is 85.
I feel I am a better conservationist and environmentalist because I am more ethical than he is when it concerns fishing and hunting.
I see his lack of caring about un-ethical hunting and fishing as being a problem he will endorse in others. I see that he is part of the problem when it comes to the problem of teaching ethical hunting and fishing principles.
What is ethical about bow-fishing for non-game species fish such as the needle nose gar?
(The carp I canunderstand and the fellow didn't say he shot gar with his bow, but most of the people I know that carp hunt have no problem with shooting needle nose gar)
I guess I have just grown old, but I don"t shoot something if I am not going to eat it.
(I do make an exception for the coyotes when their numbers are extremely high around my house)
Thanks
Mr-Pirk
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A proud owner of a Flying Vee. Bestowed by the fine Gentleman VC1111 himself.
Crows are crop destroying pests everywhere within their range , and there are far too many of them anyway .I can't think of a single reason to spare them . In their native Australia parakeets are crop destroying pests with no redeeming value other than being pretty , it's all in how you view the species .
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What is ethical about bow-fishing for non-game species fish such as the needle nose gar?
They're a generally underutilized species and provide good target practice . I've heard that some folks even eat them . [:'(]
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(The carp I canunderstand and the fellow didn't say he shot gar with his bow, but most of the people I know that carp hunt have no problem with shooting needle nose gar)
And the difference is ...?
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I guess I have just grown old, but I don"t shoot something if I am not going to eat it.
Me either in general , but I also snipe varmints occasionally , it's considered a public service by farmers where I live.
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(I do make an exception for the coyotes when their numbers are extremely high around my house)
'Yotes are quickly wearing out their welcome and don't contribute anything of value to us other than target practice and parka hood linings , they are shot on sight here.
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Kevin Haendiges
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http://hunting-indiana.com
Kevin, in Arkansas, crows have very little impact on crops given the modern farming techniques.
Crow shooting has very little impact on the crow population.
In Arkansas rabbits and squirrels have very little impact on crops. Rabbit and squirrel shooting has very little of the impact on populations that it once did, the number of squirrel and rabbit hunters have really dwindled recent years.
(In Arkansas the wall to wall planting of pine trees has had much more impact on squirrel and rabbit and quail populations than hunting has ever had. Yet that is considered ethical too. I really wonder if the deer numbers were affected in a like manner, would there finally be calls for environmental impact studies and changes forced on the timber industry.)
Crows and squirrels and rabbits are all very edible.
What is "hunting/killing" ethics?
Isn"t one of the most basic tenants that we shouldn"t kill "just for kicks"? To be ethical shouldn"t there be a better reason for any killing we do?
If not then as long as the shooting/killing "just for kicks" doesn"t effect general species populations then isn"t all killing equally ethical?
What ethical principal makes the wasteful killing of crows any different than the wasteful killing of squirrels and rabbits?
I have eaten needle-nose gar, when it is prepared like salmon patties and deep fried like hush-puppies it is a very tasty fish.
When you say they are an under utilized species, what exactly do you mean? You made it clear you don"t consider them worth preparing for the dinner table. So what do you suggest they be utilized for other than target practice?
Is the killing of any animal for no other reason than wasteful target practice ever ethical?
The difference between controlling carp populations and the wasteful killing of needle-nose gar is that the carp if left un-checked can and do severely damage fisheries. Many environmental studies have shown that, yet there aren"t corresponding studies to show that needle-nose gar need to be checked the same way.
What ethical reason is there for wastefully shooting needle-nose gar?
I can understand killing animals for a purpose (For food, clothing, controlling property damage, preventing serous environmental damage due to un-checked population increases), that is ethical.
What I don"t understand is why wasteful killing is considered proper and ethical.
Thanks
Mr-Pirk
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A proud owner of a Flying Vee. Bestowed by the fine Gentleman VC1111 himself.
To me, snagging or fishing for spawning fish is NOT unethical so long as the person plans on eating their catch. If anything, I find sportfishing, especially bass or walleye tournements unethical, as a lot of the released fish end up dying, where an otherwise typical saturday afternoon fisherman would keep and eat a fish that was badly hooked or injured. People will put in all kinds of artificial contraints on activities and call them sports in order to avoid the entire meat of the matter- fishing is and always was meant to catch food to eat. The same guy who claims to say that certain types of fishing is unethical will go home and make himself a sandwich using tuna caught in gill drift nets. Some people take their hypocrisy even further by trying to/ and often time successfully banning live bait.
In my state, the big controversy for a long time is Indian Spearing- they get a special season where they spear spawning walleye, northerns, and muskies. To me, this activity is morally superior to having a walleye fishing tournement on a lake where you'll find dead walleyes floating all over the place in the following week.
My grandfather used homemade explosives for fishing during the depression- I'm not condoning this today because of safety reasons, but in the timeframe, I feel a guy feeding his family is far more important than the lives of a few fish.
Crows are pests. Shooting them isn't going to hurt anything, They'll make more.
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Obamanfreude - 1. taking pleasure from the misfortunes of an Obama supporter as he or she is adversely affected by the policies of their Dear Leader.
Briman we don't allow ducks to be taken off the nest, we don't do this because if everyone did that there wouldn't be many ducks left for our grand children to hunt.
The fact that the duck taken off the nest would be eaten doesn't bear a lot of weight in that decision.
"Crows are pests. Shooting them isn't going to hurt anything, They'll make more".
Sadly that feeling seems to be the state of Hunting Ethics so far.
Wonton killing is stillconsidered ethical.
Thanks
Mr-Pirk
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A proud owner of a Flying Vee. Bestowed by the fine Gentleman VC1111 himself.
"Crows are pests. Shooting them isn't going to hurt anything, They'll make more".
Sadly that feeling seems to be the state of Hunting Ethics so far.
Wonton killing is stillconsidered ethical.
So its morally superior for us to have the government use taxes collected from all of us to pay out farmers year after year after year after year for crop damage caused by crows?
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Briman we don't allow ducks to be taken off the nest, we don't do this because if everyone did that there wouldn't be many ducks left for our grand children to hunt.
The fact that the duck taken off the nest would be eaten doesn't bear a lot of weight in that decision.
As bad as it sounds, I'd prefer that practice over waterfowlers who wound a 1/2 dozen ducks with the crappy steel shot coupled with taking marginal shots every outing and who refuse to count wounded ducks as part of their bag limit.
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Obamanfreude - 1. taking pleasure from the misfortunes of an Obama supporter as he or she is adversely affected by the policies of their Dear Leader.
"Fishing" for something to "Crow" about.
