The cries of "I'm gonna sue!" are already echoing. I have a real problem with that.
I am deeply disturbed that FOX news has had the words "They Were Lied To"below their news reports for quite awhile now.
None of us were there. We don't know the timetable of events. What bothers me is that already there are people screaming that they are gonna sue.
Think about it. What would anyone gain from with-holding the truth? Nothing.The truth was due to come out very soon.
If anything, the first thought I have is that there was so much media there to spread the initial report.
There are people who died. The same people who we thought would die. It's a true miracle that even one survived. One lived!!! That in itself is a miracle!!! This is no time to sue. This was basic human error as far as the information we initially had.
I really hope that once family members get ahold of theirselves they realize this.
Men who work in mines understand the risks. And so do their families.
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And the sad part is if a lady can sue McDonalds for serving hot coffee...and win!!!...There no telling how far the "scope of error" will reach or how absurd the law suites may become and still have a chance at winning in court. If the mine was in clear violation of safety codes that one thing. Then again, coal mines are pretty big around where I live and if anyone thinks it's a safe occupation they're flat-out dumb. There's a reason a kid can walk straight from the graduation line at high school get paid to sit through safety education then be making $20-25+ an hour. It's hard and it's dangerous. Everyone, including the families, know this.
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The Mine had three times the national average in safety citations. It took 11 hours to assemble a rescue crew, the owner of the mine knew three hours before the families were notified that the reports were wrong.
This isnt spilled coffie at McDonalds, and all signs point to the mine officalsbeing neglegant.
Now they are in the press trying to cover their butts.
It may be too soon to talk about lawsuits, but these famlies are devistated, and they are going to attack anyone right now, and the mine officals are the bad guys to them. If it was your family member who died, you might just say some things you didnt mean.
Aside from all of that, even if they did mean it. These are not simple frivilious lawsuits, and they will be settled in court where all the FACTS come out.
It may not be a time for talking about lawsuits, but its not a time to attack the famlies for thinking about it either.
Someone will have to correct me if I'm wrong, but regarding the mine violations... did this coal company not take over operations at the mine just very recently?
In any event, as far as assembling a rescue crew, GA you sound like those sillies down in New Orleans who were crying foul after Katrina. It takes some time to bring in the qualified people with the necessary equipment to go into the mine and get to the victims. You can't just snap your fingers and it be done.
As far as negligence is concerned, I disagree. What happened as far as the news getting out about the miners being found alive, then the families not finding out until nearly three hours later that they were actually dead is a gutwrenching tragedy. It had an impact on me a simple observer of the news, setting a thousand miles away and watching the whole ordeal on Fox News. I cannot imagine what the family must've been going through. If I were in their shoes, I'd be furious, too. But if that in itself is negligence, does the negligence lie with the mine company, or does it lie with whoever was responsible for spreading the rumor that the men had been found alive in the first place?
If the families can prove that some sort of negligence caused the explosion or some sort of negligence slowed rescue efforts that would have otherwise been successful, fine. Sue away. But there isn't any indication of any negligence in either area. If the families are simply looking to sue because their family members died, that's a frivolous lawsuit. Coal mining is an inherently dangerous job, and there's not a person out there who dons a hardhat and enters a deep mine that doesn't know the risks associated with it. Accidents happen. And an accident happened here. How much money should the coal company fork out because an accident beyond its control occurred? Five million? 10? 20? More? No amount of money is going to bring those guys back to their families. In my opinion, if they don't have a reason for sueing and they sue, they're just trying to make some money off of tragedy, which is despicable. And I DON'T think that the momentary belief that a miracle had occurred, tragic though it was, is sufficient grounds for filing a lawsuit.
The coal company has already set up a fund for the victims' families and contributed $2 million. How much more should we ask of them? Sure, coal companies are very rich and they can probably afford any settlement they're required by court to make. But to sue simply because someone wrongly said that your husband was alive and then you found out a couple of hours later that he was dead?
This country has become too damn sue-happy and it makes me sick. The answer to everything, contrary to popular belief, is NOT to file a lawsuit.
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Ben I agree that the famlies not getting word for three hours is bad judgement, but not neglegant. That being said the explosion came from an abandoned break in the mine. even though the break was abandoned there are safety requirement in place that require the gas levels in it to be maintained. If the methane built up in this section and it had a methane explosion, it is neglegance on the coal mines part.
As for the coal company just recently buying the mines, true it was just finalized in December, but taking over a huge operation like a coal mines is a process, and they have been running sego, and brought many of their own people in since June.
Lastly it is also state mining policy that if a coal mines is unsafe you close it down until it is made as safe as possible. With all of the citations for safety violations, the mines never stopped operation one time to correct things. They would put a temporary bandaid on the problem and continue to work.
My Father in Law is a forman at the mines so I am not going off of fox news reports.
Huntngirl, excellent post and topic and you were eloquent in the process.
GA:
Quote:
This isnt spilled coffie at McDonalds, and all signs point to the mine officalsbeing neglegant.
Basically, negligence means that one has failed to do something that he should have done, or did something that he should not have done.
The mine safety outfit had been visiting the mine regularly and while they had issued citations, the mine was found to have no violations that warranted having the operation shut down. So where's the negiligence? They had obviously complied or they would have been at least ordered to shut down, right?
By the way, nice to see you posting again, Gobbler.
Huntngirl:
Quote:
I am deeply disturbed that FOX news has had the words "They Were Lied To"below their news reports for quite awhile now.
I agree that Fox's choice of words was inflammatory and clearly incorrect.
This was nothing more than an example of what can happen when large numbers of people gather together and recount an event...the facts get blurred.
As I understand it, there was a report that "the miners have been located and we're checking vital signs now." If you are able to think about that in a literal sense it means only that they are checking for signs of life, not that they were 'found alive.' It is a sort of medical technicality in a sense and is as accurate a statement as could have been made at that precise moment in time. That someone misinterpreted that statement and then went on to release information, which was clearly against the company's officials directive, does not in any way constitute a lie.
In other words, according to the report that I saw, company officials had told all personnel involved to say NOTHING until such time as all information could be clearly and accurately verified.
So what does that mean? It means this: They did precisely what they should have done...which means they were not only NOT negligent, they were quite prudent in their actions.
To bring suit on the grounds of misinformation then is also a truly misguided twisting of the facts and circumstances.
What is also a grotesque state of affairs is that this will be essentially questioned by public opinion immediately, meaning that the company will be tried by the court of public opinion and found guilty based upon misguided facts and misunderstanding...thus the tragedy itself will be compounded. What a mess.
I have no doubt that new laws will be passed, which will probably be redundant in nature and cause the industry to suffer and the cost of the goods produced to rise for no real reason whatsoever.
The press should be forced to answer for such things as the Fox News used of the word "lie" in such a situation, in my not so humble opinion. Is is almost a form of slander by default and leaves the company vulnerable to complete financial collapse as result. Who wins then?
In any event, as far as assembling a rescue crew, GA you sound like those sillies down in New Orleans who were crying foul after Katrina. It takes some time to bring in the qualified people with the necessary equipment to go into the mine and get to the victims. You can't just snap your fingers and it be done.
Ben,
I have been involved in emergency preparedness most of my adult life. The mine is required to have a Contingency Plan complete with an Incident Commander, etc. to handle such emergencies. In the U.S., if you have hazards, you need a plan.
The men only had one hour or so of oxygen, so I doubt if an improved response time would have helped, but an eleven hour response time is unacceptable.
Obviously NO ONE here knows very much about health and Safety regulations here. I have over 20 years of experience in the EH & S field. Here is the reality:
1. The ICG representatives could not identify their "Incident Commander" when asked, and their reply was "MSHA".
Federal Law requires that mines have an incident response plan including explosions and other safety issues. Clearly if the heads of the company had no clue who the go to guy was, they did not have a plan and/or ignored it if they had a plan. Again, reguired by law. This is clear negligence by court case history.
2. The incident response plan must have a resuce plan and implementation plan and contact info, who to call, and who to notify. Regulations also state rescue gear must be available and checked and rotated to make sure it is operable whenever needed.
It took the ICG between 8-11 hours to muster up the equipment, and the manpower to respond. They did not have were obviously skating by the seat of their pants response (laughable) effort. This is negligence by court case history.
3. It makes no difference who owned the mine or how recently it was bought or sold, all regulations must be inplace or resources may not be mined from the formation. Safety first. The owner of the mine and EMployer of employees must protect their workforce. This is not China.
Again plenty of court case history for negligence and criminal prosecution with new owners of old producers. If one doesn't know the business or the risks they shouldn't be buying a coal mine and crying about safety violations. This mine was found with violations 3 times more than the next worst mine in the US, with 91 being significant. This could go criminal with the 12 deaths and 1 injured party.
Quote:
sound like those sillies down in New Orleans who were crying foul after Katrina. It takes some time to bring in the qualified people with the necessary equipment to go into the mine and get to the victims. You can't just snap your fingers and it be done.
MSHA should have shut this mine down a long time ago and not let it open until all significant violations are brought into compliance.
Yes MSHA screwed up, just like FEMA and the State of Lousiana Emergency Response screwed up, just like EPA and OSHA screwed up in Libby (MSHA too).
We are having death and problems in the worlplace because we are spending lots of money on agencies that don't force the bad folks to do what they are supposed to do: keep people safe, and make sure workers are not treated as "expendable".
I simply cannot believe what you all have just written here. We have a right to address civil grievances before a court against the agreieving party, we have the right to a workplace that does not cause death.
I would bet that most of the negative responsers would be the first lining fup if it was their family, and I would back that 100%.
I found most of the responses to this thread to be based on ignorance of the realities with employer regulation, safety standards, and legal standing, and consequently just ran on opinion.
Damn, straight, these people should sue not only ICG, but bring action against MSHA as well because they failed to enforce their own regulations regarding mining of coal.
The Miners....
