Patriot Act..Nothing new..

rile1564 · 12-28-2005, 02:40 PM

I've read a lot about the "abuses" of the Patriot Act. The US has been spying on it's citizens, as well as citizens of other counties, Other Countries, and groups around the world since before any of us were born. Any one that thinks different is naive, at the least. So whyall the fuss about spying and abuses of the Patriot Act. All the Patriot Act did was to say "Hey we're spying on you and now it's on paper". Even if the PA gets shot down in flames in a month the spying will continue. But I guess you will all sleep better thinking different. Fools...

MThunter · 12-28-2005, 05:13 PM

The U.S. has been spying on its citizens after court approved warrants.

AlaskaMagnum · 12-28-2005, 05:31 PM

You know you're right. What a bunch of fools. The same guys who scream about gun registration because of what "may" happen if the liberals get in power are the same guys who shrug their shoulders when G.W. and the Project for the New American Century illegally wire tap their phones.

It's all good, right?

etothepii · 12-28-2005, 07:31 PM

A couple of points I feel have to be made:

The authority for domestic spying cited by Bush is not within the Patriot Act.

Since the Patriot Act has been enacted, there has not been one case presented against any so called abuses. Is the ACLU to busy to find a case to bring to court... or do none exist?

AlaskaMagnum · 12-28-2005, 10:07 PM

Quote:

ORIGINAL: etothepii

A couple of points I feel have to be made:

The authority for domestic spying cited by Bush is not within the Patriot Act.

epthopeii,

That is actually not correct. Section 215 of the Patriot Act the "sneak and peak" section basically says that law enforcement agencies can come into your house with a judge approved warrant, tap your phones, hack your computer, and they never have to tell you that they were there. This is in and of itself a little unerving.

What comes next is even more disturbing. The whole NSA thing was implemented after Watergate and the spying and secrecey, enemy lists, etc. The FISA courts were created to avoid another abuse of power by a president. For the record, the FISA courts have issued over 19,000 warrants since their creation in 1978, and have denied four. Yes FOUR warrants, so they are obviously not that hard to get. Just a little over one denial every decade.

We have now found out that Bush circumvented the FISA courts, which leaves us to ask why? I see two possibilities. The first, and probably most benign is that Cheney and others involved in the PNAC have felt that after Watergate and Vietname the Exectuvie branch lost too much power. He has been trying desperately to get that power back.

The second alternative that I see is even more disturbing. Bush circumvented FISA because he KNEW what he was doing was illegal, and that he would NEVER get the warrants from the FISA courts. What does that mean? Who or what is he spying on, that our secret courts cannot be privy to?

Remember, it does not matter if you are a democrat or a republican, too much power is too much power. Our nation was founded on checks and balances so that no dictator, tyrant, or king could ever rise to power. These are the inherent articles of the constution. Gay marraige, abortion, social security....all of it pales in comparison to this. Bush is circumventing the very PROCESS of our government for some reason.

vc1111 · 12-28-2005, 10:14 PM

Wow. Fools? Pretty strong language, especially in here, where hardball is the name of the game.

Can you back it up?

Try this one:

How about if we do this: How about if we trust government completely so as to allow them to truly expedite matters in this ill-defined endeavor? Why not allow them to also jail those "suspected" Americans until they figure out what's what and who's who? No need for arraignment or trial, just jail them. After all, who are they going to incarcerate? Only suspected collaborators, right? If they are suspected they forfeit their rights as American citizens, right?

Quote:

Even if the PA gets shot down in flames in a month the spying will continue.

And anyone that doesn't like it is a fool, right? You accept corruption and a government that simply and secretly does what it wants to whomever, as long as its not your ox being gored, eh?

Whew. You just jumped in over your head.

rile1564 · 12-29-2005, 08:44 AM

Quote:

And anyone that doesn't like it is a fool, right? You accept corruption and a government that simply and secretly does what it wants to whomever, as long as its not your ox being gored, eh?

I don't accept corruption. What I am saying is that the government is and has been corrupt. Not just this Administration or all of them. I'm call people fools who somehow believe that it all began and will stop with the Patriot Act. Regardless of this, it was going on prior to and will continue after. That is all I am saying. So no I don't believe I jumped over my head.

Lanse couche couche · 12-29-2005, 09:27 AM

It doesn't matter to me either way, butI've heard thatthe Patriot Act isan expansion ofmeasures enacted by Clinton after the first WTC bombing? Is this true?

It is sad, but in all times of "war," rightstend to beendangered. Lincoln abused various constitutional rights during the Civil War. Ditto for the U.S. during WWI andWWII.

BenGarrett · 12-29-2005, 11:05 AM

This doesn't happen often, but I agree whole-heartedly with AlaskaMagnum's post.

Charlie P · 12-29-2005, 11:23 AM

That would be the last sign of the apocolypse wouldn't it?