Iraq is ONLY "Today's" battle field for the world.

[mr-pirk]

"Every week we receive at least two cases of women being raped and those who have been sexually abused are running away from their families in fear of honour of killings," Youssra Ali, a spokesperson for Women for Peace said.

HONOUR KILLINGS
One of the biggest problems faced by victims of rape in Iraq is the response from their families to the crime, who often resort to an honour killing. An honour killing is where a female is killed by a relative to protect the honour of the family.

Suraya, (not her real name), aged 21, did not tell anyone that she had been raped, afraid that she would be a victim of an honour killing. But she had no choice when she found out she was pregnant.
"I told first my mother one month after what happened to me and after I discovered that I was pregnant. My mother gave me three hours to run away afraid that my father was going to kill me even though I was the victim, so I searched for the NGO, it helped me and I am in a safe place now," Suraya said.
Some victims"™ destiny is much worse than hers.
"My sister was killed by my father when she returned home from college one day and told him that she had been raped by another man. My father pressed her neck on the ground and strangled her to death and hit her head with a piece of wood," said Mona (not her real name), the sister of a victim of rape and honour killing.
Today Mona has also left her home in fear of her father and is in a safe house.
The father has been taken to court for the death of his daughter, but with a high possibility of not being found guilty because according to the notion of honour killings, he was only maintaining the honour of the family, Mona"™s lawyer said.
At present under the law anyone who commits murder or rape faces the death penalty.
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I don't know where to begin when I try to wrap my mind around this. I don't post this to be a Christian verses Muslim issue. Both faiths have some rough history and both currently condem any "Honor Killing".


It is a bit of insight into the mind of the culture we are dealing with though.

More than a small amount of the ancent or near ancent world has a history of "Honor Killing"
To me it adds additional meaning to 3rd world country. Till I studied this "Honor Killing" I had assocated 3rd world mostly on an ecominic level and secondly a human rights level.
The more I ponder it the more I have to wonder if the modern world will really progrees except on the econmic side untill it deals with social issues such as "Honor Killings".

Another part of my mind trys to understand the mind-set of a father\brother\uncle\nephew
carring out a "Honor Killing".
I have to assume that these folks are like you and me, in that we would not want to kill our near-reletives. I just can't make myself believe they, as a rule, get some perverse pleasure from it.
So they are, in some abstract way, praticing their values much more strongly than we would ever consider doing. Either that or the dread of losing Honor over-rules any sense of decency they may have. Maybe it's the latter, but I just can't make myself believe that.
The truth be known, it has to be a mixture.

It isn't a religious issue, it is a tribal custom issue, since a large part of the 3rd world is
tribal, can studying the concept of "Honor Killing" allow us to develope tools to re-direct/use the values/principals to our advantage?

Do we have it in us to get past the "Kick in the Gut" reaction and use their dedication to
Honor to cause them to become part of the solution and make a difference?
Not a right or a left issue, just a mankind betterment issue.
Personaly I am still trying to get past the "Kick in the Gut" point. But at least one part of my brain tells me if we can't/don't view this in the abstract, atleast to a degree, we will lose an important tool to change/up-grade the 3rd world.

Thanks
Mr-Pirk

[boysda]

as usual, GREAT post mr-pirk.

I gotta admit, this is deeply disconcerting to me. that an otherwise presumablyhealthy homo sapien mind can have such a wildly different, almost alien concept as these "honor killings" makes one think the world is a very big and scary place.

can we channel thisstrong sense of honor productively? imo, probably not in the short term. this custom/mindset developed over thousands and thousands of years. don't think we can even fully understand it, let alone influence in our (hopefully) brief stay over there.

[kevin1]

Those folks haven't changed a lick in nearly 10,000 years , and I don't see them doing so in the next 10,000 .

[Knightia]

I have read these things about honor killings a few times in the paste somewhere. Yep Intresting postMr P

I reminded me very much of the few times to talking to taliban members on a pc way back , pre 911 and before afganastan war & what they would do in the name of honor to even a female medical person who whould see him naked...many other rants........
(taliban same ones then myson fought&transported out of afganistain at its start)


Or that red hot metal on the tougue test

Honor killings(kill your family)craziest dam S-(EDit) i ever heard[&:]

[Knightia]

I think the officaL'the plan" is to win there "hearts& minds".. and .


Of course.

I see katie curic grilling codi rice on human rights&US cia /policys live...... i dont like katie[:'(]

[CalHunter]

Yes, customs can be changed but I'd be curious to hear what their current punishment for the rapist is. Or do they even try to track down the rapists in their country?

[mr-pirk]

Boysda I agree about the concept of "Honor" klling seeming so perverted, that is the way it seems to me as well. I know that the act is forbbiden by Islamic law.

The more I look at world events, the more I see the need to more strongly focus on Human Rights issues.

I am begining the see VC's point about war being insanity. Self Defense is neccessary, war in that respect I can see. As a tool to effect a real change in people though it fails.
Now the rules that you are allowed to put in place and enforce as a result of winning a war, that can effect a change. The outlawing ofShintoism after WW11 in ***an is an example.

If we are going tobreak the cycle that Kevin points out, then we will have to start to develope some new tools.

To me it is like the reason they say most murders get cought, they plan the murder with great care, but they don't plan for after the murder.

We carefully draw up our battle plans for the war, but we don't spend a lot of time planning for after the war.

War and supporting despots has for far to long been the quick answer we come up with. I don't know what the answer is, but I do think we have to start thinking outside the box. If there is something so strong about their culture that allows them to go against basic human nature and do "Honor" killings, maybe there is some way to turn that twist of their culture into something we can use.

But it will take some new type of thinking. Respect for human rights has to be the answer we are looking for. Not just changing the leaders, but to change the mind-set of the people.

Knighta I am not so sure about the way we go about "winning the hearts and minds" of the natives. So far we have been willing to align ourselves with some bad people because the "ends justifies the means", we have to stop that.

I bet those chats with the Taliban folks were intresting.

Cal-Hunter it is my understanding that in many cases the rapist is allowed to pay a fine to the womans family and then all is forgiven, atleast the rapist is forgiven anyway. The woman/girl is "damaged goods" and suffers her whole life for the "Shame" she has allowed to be brought on her family.

Thanks
Mr-Pirk

[AlaskaMagnum]

ORIGINAL: mr-pirk


If we are going tobreak the cycle that Kevin points out, then we will have to start to develope some new tools.

You are correct sir. Unfortunately, the only way you are going to change the minds of these people is to educate their children in a Western school. That means at least fifteen to twenty years of occupation.

The problem we have as Americans is that we only view the world as Americans with our American values...very Kantian philosphy. The muslim fundamentalist does not view the world the same as the American. You will see when the election results are final that the Iraqe's will have elected themselves a fundamentalist islamic government strongly allied with Iran.

[Knightia]

Knighta I am not so sure about the way we go about "winning the hearts and minds" of the natives. So far we have been willing to align ourselves with some bad people because the "ends justifies the means", we have to stop that.

I bet those chats with the Taliban folks were intresting.

They where yes.
Im not to sure how to win there hearts& minds either or if thats even the answer. Or our job.Or what needs to be done.
I dont think our military are social workers or peace corp /rescue workers or un police or nation builders. They want to have to change who they are& so far honor killings etc threwout there history is not a big thing on the minds of most at all.( i personaly think its more then the so called extreamists we fight)

Those taliban where obviously recruiting for like minded ppl to further there causes. There causes- to further there relgion& ways world wide & get rid of the threat of the west & the Jews(the infadels)

So far we have been willing to align ourselves with some bad people because the "ends justifies the means", we have to stop that.

We do? And in the past it would have been better to fight the russians / iran& china directly ourselfs?

Our media dictates to our poltitices& polticans - Our polticans see it all as a public realtions game& wish to offend no one -

Maybe they need hollywood image creation consultants? and not generals or soldiers.
We need to get rid of our enemys not buy fair weatherfriends.

The ***aness did not change on there own & did many things in the name of honor& relgion to- What would have been the future if they had/ had the atomic bombs instead? - would they have rebuilt our country let us keep itlike we did theres?

I dont think so or germany.

[Knightia]

You will see when the election results are final that the Iraqe's will have elected themselves a fundamentalist islamic government strongly allied with Iran.

You could be very right.