VC1111 made a comment here sometime ago that has stuck with me.
War is Insanity
I have been thinking about that statement and the war in Iraq.
From the prospective of GWB, I don't see how you do anything except go to war. To do anything less would be imo at the worst insanity or at best a derilection<sp> of duty.
I don't understand how a president would leave Saddam in power. Some would say that the sanctions were working, the food for oil scandal should show that sanctions weren't working, and weren't going to work(U.N. votes for sale). The idea of keeping the sanctions in place for 50+ years as we have with Cuba just doesn't seem realistic in my view, not with the money Saddam had to spread around that Castro doesn't.
The U.N isn't the answer, as once again the oil for food program should show.
9-11-01 should have shown that the USA doesn't have to be attacked by a country, but simply that a group operating within a country can be a huge danger. ( I know there is an underleing issue about the way hi-jackings were handled pre 9-11---I don't dispute that).
How else do you handle the threat to the USA by Islamic Fundmentalist groups except to attack their base's of operation? Stop supporting Israel? That doesn't address the Islamic Fundamentalist that would continue to attack the USA for the past support of Israel.
In my opinion the only effective way to fight the war on terror is to deny them a place to openly recrut support and new members.
I don't agree with the end-result GWB has stated is his goal, the only thing Iraq will ever be to us is #1 a huge thorn in our side, #2 a base to land our planes on.
To me the goal should have been to bomb Iraq till Saddam was dead, then hand the remains back to the world.
We are NOT going to make the fundamentalist work and play nice with everyone on the playground. I accept that.
But I don't see how letting them have un-fettered open recruting in countries like Syria or Iran or Saudi Arabia is in the best intrest of the USA.
How do you NOT make an example of Iraq, Saddam was the perfect target.
He was almost weekly shooting at our planes, he set-up the failure of the U.N. inspections, he abused the food for oil program(anyone doubt that our goverment didn't know about it before GWB went to war?) he openly supported the suicide bomberskilling (Islamic Fundamentalist) killing Israelites.
If Afgainistan didn't show us anything else, it should have shown clearly,to anyone, that ignoring a country that openly supports Islamic Fundamentalist is a danger, a grave danger.
How do you deal with the Islamic countries openly supporting Islamic Terrorist/Fundamentalistexcept to show their leadership that you will go to war if they don't reform their ways?
The area of the rebuilding of Iraq is still a gray area for me, I lean towards handing it back to them right after any nessecary bombing to kill Saddam, with behind the scenes messages that if the next guy they make boss is the same sort of fellow, we'll be back.
But to NOT take Saddam out, even if it meant war, is stupidity or insanity, or derliction<sp> of duty.
Thanks
Mr-Pirk
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A proud owner of a Flying Vee. Bestowed by the fine Gentleman VC1111 himself.
don't understand how a president would leave Saddam in power
That is exactly what was going to happen if Hussein had complied with the UN inspections.
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How else do you handle the threat to the USA by Islamic Fundmentalist groups except to attack their base's of operation?
Guess we should have attacked Syria or what was the country came from again? I remember now Saudia Arabia. Iraq was not the base of operations for Al qiuda.
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he openly supported the suicide bomberskilling (Islamic Fundamentalist) killing Israelites.
So does the royal family of Saudua Arabia and GWB walks holding hands with them.
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If Afgainistan didn't show us anything else, it should have shown clearly,to anyone, that ignoring a country that openly supports Islamic Fundamentalist is a danger, a grave danger.
Maybe we shouldn't have trained them then. Rememeber when Bin Laden was a freedom fighter and was our friend,
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CharlieP That is exactly what was going to happen if Hussein had complied with the UN inspections.
Charlie P did you understand my post at all? The point being that it wasn"™t prudent to leave Saddam in power and then just sit back and see if he was willing to let bygones be bygones.
Was Saddam showing any signs that he had turned over a new leaf of forgiveness that you saw? Did you see any signs of a warming towards the USA on Saddam"™s part? Did you see any signs of Saddam remaining defiant towards the USA?
Guess we should have attacked Syria or what was the country came from again? I remember now Saudi Arabia. Iraq was not the base of operations for Al qiuda.
Did you just scan the original post? I said to make an example of Iraq, an example to the very countries named in the original post that you name in your reply.
The whole point of making an example of Saddam is so that you DON"™T have to go war with each and every Muslim state.
Perhaps Iran wouldn"™t be thumbing their nose at the USA right now if they thought the USA would take them out and then leave them with the pieces to pick up.
So does the royal family of Saudi Arabia and GWB walks holding hands with them.
I suppose you haven"™t seen any news items concerning Saudi Arabia at least carrying out raids against the fundamentalist?
I am not saying they are a shining example a country whole heartedly fighting terrorist, but there has been some degree of action on their part.
I suppose you would have the USA fighting all the Arab countries at one time?
Maybe we shouldn't have trained them then. Remember when Bin Laden was a freedom fighter and was our friend.
A president inherits the world as it is, events change and policy must change with them. CharlieP what does the training of Bin Laden have to do with the topic of this thread???????
Mr-Pirk
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A proud owner of a Flying Vee. Bestowed by the fine Gentleman VC1111 himself.
How else do you handle the threat to the USA by Islamic Fundmentalist groups except to attack their base's of operation? Stop supporting Israel? That doesn't address the Islamic Fundamentalist that would continue to attack the USA for the past support of Israel.
Show me where you said anything about making an example of anyone in this statement.
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The point being that it wasn"™t prudent to leave Saddam in power and then just sit back and see if he was willing to let bygones be bygones.
That's exactly what GWB was willing to do.
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CharlieP what does the training of Bin Laden have to do with the topic of this thread???????
Who organized and funded the Attacks on 9/11, sure wasn't Hussein. We trained bin laden even though we knew he hated everything about this country. Then we were shocked when he used what we taught him against us.
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I said to make an example of Iraq,
Let's make an examplew out of the country that has the least to do with terro groups like Al Queada, you right war is insanity.
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Perhaps Iran wouldn"™t be thumbing their nose at the USA right now if they thought the USA would take them out and then leave them with the pieces to pick up.
Thought you just said we invaded Iraq so that countries like Iran wouldn't thumb their noses at us?
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From the prospective of GWB, I don't see how you do anything except go to war. To do anything less would be imo at the worst insanity or at best a derilection<sp> of duty.
My point was Bush never called for Hussein and his two sons to leave Iraq until 48 hours before the Action started. He told the world many times Hussein can stay in power if he meets certain conditions etcf.
So now we have made an example out of Hussein and camps are still operating in Syria and SA. Supposedly most of the cache of WMD's went to Syria right? Thisexample we made of Hussein made them give them all up,right? It also made Iran give up their quest for Nuclear weapons,right. I forgot their thumbing their noses at us.
I see the insanity now,thanks.
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whether we should be there or not is moot at this point...if the nation doesn't soon come together as one(circa WW2) greater damage will be done than all the Al Quaeda idiots combined. Wanna know who I think's to blame for this division?.... the media. Not one normal human being can believe that the reporting,on ALL issues here & abroad,is anything less than bias...that the character of thenews report is done in malice towards ANYTHINGthat even remotely resembles unification/edification or progress in that direction. That goes for Iraq.... Hurricane Katrina.....Osama Bin bullcrap....or any issue that involves our Gov't. The SOLE PURPOSE of the "Freedom of the press" facad, is to MANIPULATE public opinion, 'cuz there's power in the PEOPLE, not the politicians. Now don't get me wrong... corruptness shouldn't be tolerated...neither should cowardice,treason,perjury,dis-honesty in any form... feel free to add to this list,if it stregthens the populace. Add Immorality to the list, too many today feel it's no longer appropriate to suggest that. I feel this country's in for a very rocky road ahead, and it won't be 'cuz we went into Iraq.
..these times remind me of the Viet Nam era... deja vu.... maybe the Man was right when He wrote in His Word.." nothing new under the sun". I work around war veterans all day,and the # 1 complaint is that the news doesn't show support for our troops... this is coming from those that's been in war,not from those that hid in college then and behind a keyboard now.
CharlieP I see you don't understand the point of thethread.
There is only one item you posted that is even avaguely relevent to the original post.
That is your statement about what Bush said about not going to war with Saddam if Saddam complied with all U.N. resolutions.
If you can recall the verbal exchanges between GWB and Saddam leading up to the war it was very clear that GWB was goading Saddam. Saddam took the bait everytime.
It should have been clear that inspite of any public statements GWB made, he never expectedSaddam to comply with all U.N. resolutions.
I don't see GWB's statement concerning Saddam's potential compliance as being anything more than a politicaly correct answer to a question asked.
Which brings me to the point of this thread, would it have been prudent to have just left Saddam in power and sit back and hope he would let by-gones be by-gones.
There was certainly nothing I saw that would have led me, or any other reasonable person(imo) to conclude Saddam was willing to do that.
I believe that GWB came to that exact conclusion as well.
Charlie P did you see any actions by Saddam that would have led you to believe he was willing to let by-gones be by-gones and to not try to gain revenge at some future point in time?
Posting your beliefs as to why Saddam would have never sought revenge.Now that would be revelent.
Rem. 1100 I agree with your post.
I would also add that the one valueable extra we had to this war was the ability to justthreaten.
That is all but lost now.
Thanks
Mr-Pirk
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A proud owner of a Flying Vee. Bestowed by the fine Gentleman VC1111 himself.
War is insanity
