Just over 100K doe tags left in PA
09-11-2009, 03:57 PM
#21
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,879
What have we gained from a 40% reduction in our herd? Could it be a 5% reduction in in breeding rates, no change in the breeding window, a 40% reduction in the buck harv
09-11-2009, 04:41 PM
#22
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Morgantown WV USA
Posts: 108
Simple
There is a lag from when you reduce deer number until you see habitat improvements and better herd health.
What did you think reduce the deer herd and next year everything is perfect? It took decades to dig the hole. After every great party there is the hang over and clean up. We can thank your generation for running to the law makers any time the GC wanted to pull back on the deer herd. They in turn pulled back the carrot of increased funding via a license increase and the board who has to consider $$$ as well as wwildlife management caved. Rinse, lather repeat.
WV Gino
There is a lag from when you reduce deer number until you see habitat improvements and better herd health.
What did you think reduce the deer herd and next year everything is perfect? It took decades to dig the hole. After every great party there is the hang over and clean up. We can thank your generation for running to the law makers any time the GC wanted to pull back on the deer herd. They in turn pulled back the carrot of increased funding via a license increase and the board who has to consider $$$ as well as wwildlife management caved. Rinse, lather repeat.
WV Gino
09-11-2009, 04:45 PM
#23
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location:
Posts: 2,978
"Cornball
reverting fields ARE counted as forest. They would classified as seedling/sapling stands.
Gino "
Completely false statement. it takes a LONG time to revert to that stage due to lack of seed bank, possible soil compaction etc. It would also need to have a thick stand of saplings to be considered forested, similar to what you get when an area of timber is cut with sprouts coming from stump and the large amount of seed comparatively. Not a field full of briars with a woody stem here or there widely scattered. You dont leave a field fallow for several years and it magically becomes instant early stage succession timber.
reverting fields ARE counted as forest. They would classified as seedling/sapling stands.
Gino "
Completely false statement. it takes a LONG time to revert to that stage due to lack of seed bank, possible soil compaction etc. It would also need to have a thick stand of saplings to be considered forested, similar to what you get when an area of timber is cut with sprouts coming from stump and the large amount of seed comparatively. Not a field full of briars with a woody stem here or there widely scattered. You dont leave a field fallow for several years and it magically becomes instant early stage succession timber.
09-11-2009, 04:53 PM
#24
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location:
Posts: 2,978
"What did you think reduce the deer herd and next year everything is perfect?"
The north has been reduced lower than anywhere and the reduction occurred earlier than most other areas. Its been a helluva lot longer than "last year" and the habitat according to pgc is still poor. It doesnt add up. Since the reduction herd health indicators statewide have also declined. We were told we would see results soon when this program began, and changes would be made as necessary. We see results and they werent as predicted. No "more and bigger bucks", and no improved breeding timing according to pgc, and most of all DECLINE in reproductive rates... Toss in a huge number of pizzed hunters..... Sorry bud, but to anyone not concerned strictly with more eco-extremist agendas that include more trilium and hobblebush....that = MISERABLY failed program.
The north has been reduced lower than anywhere and the reduction occurred earlier than most other areas. Its been a helluva lot longer than "last year" and the habitat according to pgc is still poor. It doesnt add up. Since the reduction herd health indicators statewide have also declined. We were told we would see results soon when this program began, and changes would be made as necessary. We see results and they werent as predicted. No "more and bigger bucks", and no improved breeding timing according to pgc, and most of all DECLINE in reproductive rates... Toss in a huge number of pizzed hunters..... Sorry bud, but to anyone not concerned strictly with more eco-extremist agendas that include more trilium and hobblebush....that = MISERABLY failed program.
09-11-2009, 05:03 PM
#25
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location:
Posts: 2,978
Btw, thanks for the tabled data gino. I had been interested in getting that for a while. Helps tons in comparisons, especially with current situation compared to previously when we were under the county based system. County square miles were known. Wmus werent. With both known comparisons can be made that werent possible previously.
Also depicts exactly what i was saying about 2A. 95.8% deer habitat in the form of forest + agricultural lands. Only 2.7% developed.
Also depicts exactly what i was saying about 2A. 95.8% deer habitat in the form of forest + agricultural lands. Only 2.7% developed.
09-11-2009, 05:10 PM
#26
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Morgantown WV USA
Posts: 108
>Completely false statement. it takes a LONG time to revert to that stage due to lack of seed bank, possible soil compaction etc.
There are new seeds being deposited in pastures all the time. Nature has many interesting ways to move seeds around. Any given pasture is loaded with tree seeds
just ready to be given the chance to grow.
There have been fields reverting from decades in SW PA. At the point you would consider them deer habitat they would also be considered seedling/saplings stands.
Quit mowing a field and within five years it will be a jungle of woody vegetation.
I will provide the definitions of seedling, sapling, seedling/sapling stand and stocked as well as a link to where I lifted them from
Seedling: A live tree less than 1.0 inch d.b.h. and at least 1 foot tall.
Sapling: All live trees 1.0 inches through 4.9 inches d.b.h. (see d.b.h.)
Sapling/seedling stand: A stand-size class of forest land that is stocked with at least 10 percent of minimum full stocking with live trees with half or more of such stocking in saplings or seedlings or both.
Stocking:
FIA plots that are nothing but hay field one inventory cycle can most certainly become seedling/sapling stands the next time they are visited.
Gino
There are new seeds being deposited in pastures all the time. Nature has many interesting ways to move seeds around. Any given pasture is loaded with tree seeds
just ready to be given the chance to grow.
There have been fields reverting from decades in SW PA. At the point you would consider them deer habitat they would also be considered seedling/saplings stands.
Quit mowing a field and within five years it will be a jungle of woody vegetation.
I will provide the definitions of seedling, sapling, seedling/sapling stand and stocked as well as a link to where I lifted them from
Seedling: A live tree less than 1.0 inch d.b.h. and at least 1 foot tall.
Sapling: All live trees 1.0 inches through 4.9 inches d.b.h. (see d.b.h.)
Sapling/seedling stand: A stand-size class of forest land that is stocked with at least 10 percent of minimum full stocking with live trees with half or more of such stocking in saplings or seedlings or both.
Stocking:
- (for Maine) A relative measure of stand density based on the "A line" of stocking guides for appropriate species and forest types . The relationships between the classes and the percentage of the stocking standard are: nonstocked (0 to 9); poorly stocked (10 to 34); moderately stocked (35 to 59); fully stocked (60 to 100); and overstocked (101 and over).
- (States other than Maine) The degree of occupancy of land by trees, measured by basal area and/or number of trees in a stand compared with the basal area and/or number of trees required to fully use the growth potential of the land (or the stocking standard). In the Eastern United States this standard is 75 square feet of basal area per acre for trees 5.0 inches d.b.h. and larger, or its equivalent in numbers of trees per acre for seedlings and saplings. Two categories of stocking are used in this report: all live trees and growing-stock trees. The relationships between the classes and the percentage of the stocking standard are: nonstocked (0 to 9); poorly stocked (10 to 59); moderately stocked (60 to 99); fully stocked (100 to 129); and overstocked (130 to 160).
FIA plots that are nothing but hay field one inventory cycle can most certainly become seedling/sapling stands the next time they are visited.
Gino
09-11-2009, 05:13 PM
#27
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Morgantown WV USA
Posts: 108
> 95.8% deer habitat in the form of forest + agricultural lands.
You have no idea what it takes to feed a deer in the winter.
Woody browse is the only thing you can count on at the latitude PA is located.
WV Gino
You have no idea what it takes to feed a deer in the winter.
Woody browse is the only thing you can count on at the latitude PA is located.
WV Gino
09-11-2009, 05:21 PM
#28
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location:
Posts: 2,978
"There are new seeds being deposited in pastures all the time."
Not nearly to the extent as those deposited in forested areas. Also, obviously, no stump sprouts. And as i said, compaction due to livestock, machinery etc doesnt help.
"There have been fields reverting from decades in SW PA. At the point you would consider them deer habitat they would also be considered seedling/saplings stands."
At what point do you consider them not? I consider them deer habitat if they provide a significant source of food and or cover. They do so long before reaching the sapling timber stage. In fact, the second the semiwoody brambles etc. begin to appear if not sooner. IN fact deer feed on the grasses and forbes to an extent throughout the winter to some extent as well even prior to fields reverting.
"Quit mowing a field and within five years it will be a jungle of woody vegetation."
Not even close to the extent of a clear cut. (if at all).
"I will provide the definitions of seedling, sapling, seedling/sapling stand and stocked as well as a link to where I lifted them from"
Most of the land being discussed would fall into the percentages in the chart stated as agricultural land/fields etc. bracket. Those are also lands which you excluded when determining harvest per square mile in favor of "forested" only. I think you see why thats not feasible in this type of country. Are you gonna deny that deer are shot in agricultural lands, fields and the other types that i referred to?
"Sapling/seedling stand: A stand-size class of forest land that is stocked with at least 10 percent of minimum full stocking with live trees with half or more of such stocking in saplings or seedlings or both."
Perfectly understood. But what of the areas NOT including 10% of "full minimum stocking". These are the areas I spoke of. That is also only one habitat type spoken of.
Not nearly to the extent as those deposited in forested areas. Also, obviously, no stump sprouts. And as i said, compaction due to livestock, machinery etc doesnt help.
"There have been fields reverting from decades in SW PA. At the point you would consider them deer habitat they would also be considered seedling/saplings stands."
At what point do you consider them not? I consider them deer habitat if they provide a significant source of food and or cover. They do so long before reaching the sapling timber stage. In fact, the second the semiwoody brambles etc. begin to appear if not sooner. IN fact deer feed on the grasses and forbes to an extent throughout the winter to some extent as well even prior to fields reverting.
"Quit mowing a field and within five years it will be a jungle of woody vegetation."
Not even close to the extent of a clear cut. (if at all).
"I will provide the definitions of seedling, sapling, seedling/sapling stand and stocked as well as a link to where I lifted them from"
Most of the land being discussed would fall into the percentages in the chart stated as agricultural land/fields etc. bracket. Those are also lands which you excluded when determining harvest per square mile in favor of "forested" only. I think you see why thats not feasible in this type of country. Are you gonna deny that deer are shot in agricultural lands, fields and the other types that i referred to?
"Sapling/seedling stand: A stand-size class of forest land that is stocked with at least 10 percent of minimum full stocking with live trees with half or more of such stocking in saplings or seedlings or both."
Perfectly understood. But what of the areas NOT including 10% of "full minimum stocking". These are the areas I spoke of. That is also only one habitat type spoken of.
Last edited by Cornelius08; 09-11-2009 at 05:40 PM.
09-11-2009, 05:27 PM
#29
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location:
Posts: 2,978
"You have no idea what it takes to feed a deer in the winter."
I know EXACTLY what it takes to feed a deer in winter. I also know a 1000 yard wide blackberry and multiflora rose patch will feed more deer than the same sized patch of mature or pole timber in winter, yet for some reason you dont include it in your figuring...and all because they dont include enough "saplings" per acre???? Thats nonsense. Also doesnt explain why you dont include all the aforementioned habitat in your "harvest" assessment. A helluva lot of deer ARE shot in those areas. But you claim none are?
And if they are, how is it possible if its not deer habitat and they shouldnt exist there...what are they doing there? lol.
You said previously you didnt want to include walmart parking lots in your equation. Then its quite simple. You subtract the 2.7% of developed land for the wmu, and you come up with a product we should all be able to agree on. SImple as pie.
"Woody browse is the only thing you can count on at the latitude PA is located."
Nope. Id agree in a northern forest area. But not here. Not even close. Of course its very important but not as much as it is in areas with less diverse habitat. Maybe you should gut a deer or quite a few in flintlock seasons in several areas of the wmu, check the contents of the stomach, then get back to me on that. You'll find a helluva lot more than just woody browse. The predominance of other preferred food sources alone should tell you otherwise without even needing to operate.
I know EXACTLY what it takes to feed a deer in winter. I also know a 1000 yard wide blackberry and multiflora rose patch will feed more deer than the same sized patch of mature or pole timber in winter, yet for some reason you dont include it in your figuring...and all because they dont include enough "saplings" per acre???? Thats nonsense. Also doesnt explain why you dont include all the aforementioned habitat in your "harvest" assessment. A helluva lot of deer ARE shot in those areas. But you claim none are?
And if they are, how is it possible if its not deer habitat and they shouldnt exist there...what are they doing there? lol.You said previously you didnt want to include walmart parking lots in your equation. Then its quite simple. You subtract the 2.7% of developed land for the wmu, and you come up with a product we should all be able to agree on. SImple as pie.
"Woody browse is the only thing you can count on at the latitude PA is located."
Nope. Id agree in a northern forest area. But not here. Not even close. Of course its very important but not as much as it is in areas with less diverse habitat. Maybe you should gut a deer or quite a few in flintlock seasons in several areas of the wmu, check the contents of the stomach, then get back to me on that. You'll find a helluva lot more than just woody browse. The predominance of other preferred food sources alone should tell you otherwise without even needing to operate.
Last edited by Cornelius08; 09-11-2009 at 05:37 PM.
09-11-2009, 05:30 PM
#30
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Morgantown WV USA
Posts: 108
>Not even close to the extent of a clear cut. (if at all).
I have seen and worked in 10 year old clear cuts with less number of trees
than the parking areas at my local mall.
Your missing the point. The areas of 2A that you think are not being included in the FIA forested estimate ARE being picked up. Abandoned pasture land is being classed as seedling/sapling and is therefore classified as forested.
WV Gino
I have seen and worked in 10 year old clear cuts with less number of trees
than the parking areas at my local mall.
Your missing the point. The areas of 2A that you think are not being included in the FIA forested estimate ARE being picked up. Abandoned pasture land is being classed as seedling/sapling and is therefore classified as forested.
WV Gino