Should hunters believe Dr. Alt, Dr. Rosenberry, Dr, Alsheimer or Dr. Demarasis? Dr. Alt and Dr. Rosenberry agreed we had too many deer and had to reduce the herd by around 50% which would result in an average DD of 12 DPSM. But here is what Dr. Alshieimer has to say about the carrying capacity of most of our state.
"The proper number of deer per square mile of deer habitat will vary by region. In our farm rich area of New York State , biologists would like to see no more than 35-40 deer per square mile. Unfortunately these numbers haven"™t been seen for more than two decades."
He goes onto say this about the doe harvests that are recommeded.
"In our QDM program we typically harvest between 8 and 12 does per season on our 200 acres. This is a bit more than the normal recommended harvest of 45 does per 1,000 acres, but we harvest a few more than some might think we need to because some of our surrounding neighbors do not believe in killing does."
A harvest rate of 10 doe /200 acres equals a harvest of 32 doe/SM. A harvest rate of 45 does/1000 acres equals 29 doe PSM. So Dr. Al recommends a doe harvest which is over twice what Dr. Alt and Dr. Rosenberry recommends as the over wintering carrying capacity of the habitat. So who should the average hunter believe?
__________________ In Miss. ,ARs reduced the average rack size of 2.5+ buck across the entire state
Obviously not every biologist and deer manager in the country agree with the PGC plan. But try telling that to the fan club. BTW, just a little poke. I don't subscribe to "witch doctors." More ofa Pennsylvania Dutch pow wower, myself!
__________________
"You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom...The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friend, is about the end of any nation."
Should hunters believe Dr. Alt, Dr. Rosenberry, Dr, Alsheimer or Dr. Demarasis? Dr. Alt and Dr. Rosenberry agreed we had too many deer and had to reduce the herd by around 50% which would result in an average DD of 12 DPSM. But here is what Dr. Alshieimer has to say about the carrying capacity of most of our state.
"The proper number of deer per square mile of deer habitat will vary by region. In our farm rich area of New York State , biologists would like to see no more than 35-40 deer per square mile. Unfortunately these numbers haven"™t been seen for more than two decades."
He goes onto say this about the doe harvests that are recommeded.
"In our QDM program we typically harvest between 8 and 12 does per season on our 200 acres. This is a bit more than the normal recommended harvest of 45 does per 1,000 acres, but we harvest a few more than some might think we need to because some of our surrounding neighbors do not believe in killing does."
A harvest rate of 10 doe /200 acres equals a harvest of 32 doe/SM. A harvest rate of 45 does/1000 acres equals 29 doe PSM. So Dr. Al recommends a doe harvest which is over twice what Dr. Alt and Dr. Rosenberry recommends as the over wintering carrying capacity of the habitat. So who should the average hunter believe?
First, you have no idea who you're talking about. Charles Alsheimer is an outdoor writer, photographer and editor. He is a well respected member of the outdoor press but he is not a Doctor of anything. As always, you fail to get the real facts before you post.
Second,those numbers you quoted regarding Dr Alt and Dr Rosenberry are your interperetations and not the goals as stated by them. You can provide no link where either Alt or Rosenberry stated that a 50% reduction was the goal
Third, you obviously failed to mention Dr Kroll AKA Dr Deer. Funny how you left out the man who is probably the most respected wildlife biologist out there today. Of course we all know that you've accused him of being biased because his findings refute all your theories.
With every post you do inadvertently shed some light on who hunters ought to trust.
Hunters would be better served by believing the professionals rather than a self appointed and vocal internet hack who takes bits of data collected by those professionals out of context and twists it to his own conclusions.
Just as it makes no sense to choose a stock reccomended by the landscaper or letting an auto mechanic take out your appendix, it makes no sense to accept conclusions drawn by one or two internet "experts" who won't even offer their real names let alone their qualifications that give them some basisfor constantly criticizing the professionals
__________________
Cant wait for 2012!
If guns kill people, spoons made Rosie O'Donnell fat!!!
Second,those numbers you quoted regarding Dr Alt and Dr Rosenberry are your interperetations and not the goals as stated by them. You can provide no link where either Alt or Rosenberry stated that a 50% reduction was the goal
I am surprised you would choose to question that fact considering the 2007 buck harvest was down 47% from 2001. Have you forgotten Alt said they wanted to reduce the herd by 5%/year for 10 years.
Quote:
Third, you obviously failed to mention Dr Kroll AKA Dr Deer. Funny how you left out the man who is probably the most respected wildlife biologist out there today. Of course we all know that you've accused him of being biased because his findings refute all your theories.
Actually Dr. Kroll's research supports my position,it is just that he rearches the wrong conclusions. He doesn't even recognize the obvious effects of high grading that occurred due to ARs in Miss.
Quote:
Hunters would be better served by believing the professionals rather than a self appointed and vocal internet hack who takes bits of data collected by those professionals out of context and twists it to his own conclusions.
Apparently numerous experts claim the majority of habitat in PA can support 35-40 DPSM, while the PGC claimed 5C could only support 6 DPSM. So "WITCH" experts should we believe?
__________________ In Miss. ,ARs reduced the average rack size of 2.5+ buck across the entire state
So when did Charlie Alsheimer get his PHD? Or are you bestowing those now too?
Quote:
I am surprised you would choose to question that fact considering the 2007 buck harvest was down 47% from 2001. Have you forgotten Alt said they wanted to reduce the herd by 5%/year for 10 years.
Couldn't find that link, eh?
Quote:
Actually Dr. Kroll's research supports my position,it is just that he rearches the wrong conclusions. He doesn't even recognize the obvious effects of high grading that occurred due to ARs in Miss.
Why not write up your own conclusions correcting Dr Kroll and submit them to all the hunting publications and we'll see who believes you over Dr deer
Quote:
Apparently numerous experts claim the majority of habitat in PA can support 35-40 DPSM, while the PGC claimed 5C could only support 6 DPSM. So "WITCH" experts should we believe?
Another classic Deaddeer, deerfly,beenther,bluebird2, ddear, Larry darryl and darryl distortion. I challenge you to produce a link quoting a few of your "numerous experts" claiming exactly what the habitat in PA vcan support. Oh and comparing 5C to the rest of the state is bogus too. When the 6 DPSM goal was released (no longer being used BTW) it very clearly stated that this was agoal based on human/deer conflict in an SRA urban WMU
__________________
Cant wait for 2012!
If guns kill people, spoons made Rosie O'Donnell fat!!!
Another classic Deaddeer, deerfly,beenther,bluebird2, ddear, Larry darryl and darryl distortion.Â* I challenge you to produce a link quoting a few of your "numerous experts" claiming exactly what the habitat in PA vcan support.Â* Oh and comparing 5C to the rest of the state is bogus too. When the 6 DPSM goal was released (no longer being used BTW) it very clearly stated that this was aÂ*goal based on human/deer conflict in an SRA urban WMU
_____________________________
If the habitat in mixed farmland and woods in NY can support 35-40 DPSM, why wouldn't similar habitat in PA support at least as many deer? Furthermore you are flat out wrong about the 6 DPSM goal for 5 C. The for 5 C was that low because 5C is only 33.7% forested and the PGC only considers forested habitat when establishing DD goals. The goal in 5B was 5 DPSM because 5B is only 27% forested. When the PGC switched from DPFSM to DPSM they did not establish the new goals based on deer human conflict.
__________________ In Miss. ,ARs reduced the average rack size of 2.5+ buck across the entire state
Another classic Deaddeer, deerfly,beenther,bluebird2, ddear, Larry darryl and darryl distortion. I challenge you to produce a link quoting a few of your "numerous experts" claiming exactly what the habitat in PA vcan support. Oh and comparing 5C to the rest of the state is bogus too. When the 6 DPSM goal was released (no longer being used BTW) it very clearly stated that this was agoal based on human/deer conflict in an SRA urban WMU
_____________________________
If the habitat in mixed farmland and woods in NY can support 35-40 DPSM, why wouldn't similar habitat in PA support at least as many deer? Furthermore you are flat out wrong about the 6 DPSM goal for 5 C. The for 5 C was that low because 5C is only 33.7% forested and the PGC only considers forested habitat when establishing DD goals. The goal in 5B was 5 DPSM because 5B is only 27% forested. When the PGC switched from DPFSM to DPSM they did not establish the new goals based on deer human conflict.
As we all figured.No evidenceto back your claims
None documenting whomade Charlie Alsheimer a"doctor" as you claim
None documenting Dr Alt or Roseberryclaiming the need for a 50% herd reduction as you claim.
Nothingto back up your claim that Dr Kroll is biased
Nothingtelling us who these unnamed "numerous experts" that haveclaimed that PA's habitat can support 35-40 DPSM or any documentation thatthese "numerous experts"made these claims
As for the no longer used and now obsolete DD goals that were once stated for SRA's, The PGC did clearly cite the urban nature of SRA's as one of the reasons for the low number (again, an obsolete criteria anyway). This may come as a newsflash for you but trees don't grow on concrete or blacktop and buildings, shopping malls houses, golf coursesand playgrounds arent really that good for deer habitat.
__________________
Cant wait for 2012!
If guns kill people, spoons made Rosie O'Donnell fat!!!
As for the no longer used and now obsolete DD goals that were onceÂ* stated for SRA's
The PGC never stated DD goals for the SRA areas. The deer in the SRA areas weren't even included in the statewide harvest estimates until 2003 or 2004 when Alt claimed we had 1.6 M deer ,based on the flawed computer model. Prior to that the goal for the SRA counties was zero DPSM because they didn't consider the SRAs as suitable deer habitat.
Quote:
Nothing telling us who these unnamed "numerous experts" that have claimed that PA's habitat can support 35-40 DPSM or any documentation that these "numerous experts" made these claims
Alsheimer was one of those experts that said mixed farmland and woodlots can support 35-40 DPSM and based on the harvest data he cited ,he was managing his property at 32 doe PSM and recommended that other QDM properties should be managed at 29 doe PSM.
__________________ In Miss. ,ARs reduced the average rack size of 2.5+ buck across the entire state
Bluebird, you can knock alt off that list right off the bat. He has no credibility. Everyone knows he was nothing more than Audubons "back door man".
I also find it funny Btbowhunter, that you "knock" Alsheimer by insinuating he doesnt belong on bluebirds "expert" list,even though heis a noted well known lifelong reasearcher of the whitetailed deer, yet you are quick to support every word from a "Pa game warden" as the gospel and final word on deer management and biology.
Alsheimer was one of those experts that said mixed farmland and woodlots can support 35-40 DPSM and based on the harvest data he cited ,he was managing his property at 32 doe PSM and recommended that other QDM properties should be managed at 29 doe PSM.
Wrong again. That statement was referring to New York. You thenj took it upon yourself to apply it to all of Pennsylvania. While some parts of New York and Pennsylvania may be similar, thats a far cry from the statement you claimed.
Cornelius
Quote:
I also find it funny Btbowhunter, that you "knock" Alsheimer by insinuating he doesnt belong on bluebirds "expert" list,even though heis a noted well known lifelong reasearcher of the whitetailed deer, yet you are quick to support every word from a "Pa game warden" as the gospel and final word on deer management and biology.
You really need some help with your reading comprehension. The as posted title by your twin brotherBluebird was "witch doctors should hunters beleive" I merely pointed out Charlie Alsheimer is not a biologist further proving that Bluebird makes up his own "facts" as he goes along. In this case, it was convenient for him to use a partial statement by Charles Alsheimer, out of context again I might add. Since it was convenient to his thread, Bluebird declared him to be a doctor too therefore insinuating that he is a wildlife biologist.
The only thing I said about CH directly was that he is well respected in his field.
Maybe you should try to actually read a post before you comment. If you still have trouble, maybe you should have someone read it to you and explain it.
__________________
Cant wait for 2012!
If guns kill people, spoons made Rosie O'Donnell fat!!!
Witch Doctors Should Hunters Believe
