New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?

[Sylvan]

I don't need to kill the most vulnerable age class of buck in the woods to keep my manhood in tact.

To even imply that killing a deer of any kind has a thing to do with being a man is juvenile. Do you think killing a big buck shows you are a big man? Must be you do! It's deer hunting we're talking about for God's sake. It's a sport. It's what we do for fun and we ALL do it for our own self interest so please don't patronize us with thenotionthat you do it to help preserve the natural order of things. You hunt because you love to hunt and you want AR because you believe it will improve your odds of getting a big buck. Like I said, there's not a thing wrong with that either. I simply think that preserving a hunters freedom to choose AR or not is valuable to hunting here in NY and giving it away for a somewhat improved probability of killing a big buck isn't worth it imo.

[tmeservey]

And you think your numbers are accurate, yah right! I don't believe any of the #'s I get from state groups or advisory commitees or DEC.My friends and I are out in the woods doing things surveys cannot. Experience with our local deer is enought to know what the %ell is going on to bucks in our location. We hunt hard and we scout and spend time observing, talking to people, etc.............

I can tell you right now the LARGE majority of bucks are DEAD now that the season is over. And a even larger majority of 1.5 year old are DEAD. Most hunters here count of the button bucks of this year to be their shooters for next.

AR aren't perfect but is in the right direction.The system is arse end backwords like stated earlier. How would nature intend for our herd to look? Thisshpould be our states DEC goal and obligation, not so every hunter can shoot a buck.

Believe it or not I've been quoted saying I would sacrifice and love to see DEC close the deer seasona year or two. Doe harvest would have to be neccessary.

[doctariAFC]

ORIGINAL: tmeservey

And you think your numbers are accurate, yah right! I don't believe any of the #'s I get from state groups or advisory commitees or DEC.My friends and I are out in the woods doing things surveys cannot. Experience with our local deer is enought to know what the %ell is going on to bucks in our location. We hunt hard and we scout and spend time observing, talking to people, etc.............

I can tell you right now the LARGE majority of bucks are DEAD now that the season is over. And a even larger majority of 1.5 year old are DEAD. Most hunters here count of the button bucks of this year to be their shooters for next.

AR aren't perfect but is in the right direction.The system is arse end backwords like stated earlier. How would nature intend for our herd to look? Thisshpould be our states DEC goal and obligation, not so every hunter can shoot a buck.

Believe it or not I've been quoted saying I would sacrifice and love to see DEC close the deer seasona year or two. Doe harvest would have to be neccessary.

I see, so your made up numbers and very limited "experiences" in the woods trump biology and science.

Although that statement that you made would earn the Blithering Idiot of the Day Award, you did make a correct observation concerning the accuracy of the existing numbers/ system, which is collected based on managing the deer numbers in total and only the deer numbers in total.

So what you are saying is that you do not trust the basic numbers coming from the DEC, but you have some sort of blind faith that if we pass a law, which demands far more detail in information collection and reports (age class, buck:doe ratio, etc), you'll trust those?

You cannot have it both ways, and you certainly cannot make up whatever numbers you want to support your argument.

Sorry, but you have just lost all your credibility on this issue. Thanks.... There goes another one.... Who's next?

[jf5]

- Can you tell me how targeting the best of the 1 1/2 bucks will help anything?

-

Thesedeer are targeted anyway...

I hunt in MA w/ 3" rule. I have not shot allot of bucks in this stateso anybuck is a prize to me. I still hunt for any legal buck in most Ihunt and will as long as its legal.However, I STILL support AR's. I don't see it as a trophy vs meat regulation, I see it as a way to let a certain segment of the heard advance in age and experience. Offering a more balanced adult Male population. Fisheries managers adjust lengths and bag limits all the time as situations change on waters. Game biologists should have the same flexabiltiy.

I can understand the passion on all sides. But I don't udnerstand why some won't even try it.Thing isabout AR, they canalways be changed back if the plan is not sucessful.

But I have seen first handthe good AR has done for PA, and even Vermonts"spike" ruleappears to be working after only 2 years.

[tmeservey]

Why are you so sold on numbers. The statehas always been of with its deer numbers including this season. They thought our doe #'s were down so much they closed our entire wmu from taking does with a rifle. So next season we;ll have twice as many does and less bucks because guys had to fill the freezer with a small juvinile buck this year. Great statistics/numbers when you could ask any farmer, advid outdoorsman how many deer were around this year. My best friend who rides the thru-way because he is a trooper said deer accidents were up again. Give me a break about going along with State numbers and calculations.This just shows you how numbers would effect AR from the pros.They have nothing to do with letting more bucks survive. Just put in place AR and enforce it. We need enj
forcement not your mathematics. It's not rocket science. And thanks for the name calling, you must serve our state well with your deer #'s input.

[doctariAFC]

ORIGINAL: tmeservey

Why are you so sold on numbers. The statehas always been of with its deer numbers including this season. They thought our doe #'s were down so much they closed our entire wmu from taking does with a rifle. So next season we;ll have twice as many does and less bucks because guys had to fill the freezer with a small juvinile buck this year. Great statistics/numbers when you could ask any farmer, advid outdoorsman how many deer were around this year. My best friend who rides the thru-way because he is a trooper said deer accidents were up again. Give me a break about going along with State numbers and calculations.This just shows you how numbers would effect AR from the pros.They have nothing to do with letting more bucks survive. Just put in place AR and enforce it. We need enj
forcement not your mathematics. It's not rocket science. And thanks for the name calling, you must serve our state well with your deer #'s input.

How do you manage deer numbers without numbers?

Come on. Everything we do with conservation is for the good of the whole herd at the top, or should be. The DEC, especially this year, is now attempting to keep the deer numbers as stable as possible, avoiding the ups and downs that have historically plagued the herds through inept and wrong policy. I didn't hear anyone complaining back in 2002/ 2003 when deer harvest numbers were at their peak. We set records! Then in 2004, crash, and the hunters got their panties in a wad, screaming bloody murder that the state was wiping out the deer (when it was really the hunters who demanded more opportunity, and the insurance companies demanding the numbers be lowered to save them money that caused the problems).

So, here we are a few short years removed, and hunters are again screaming bloody murder, but, you know what, if you do not have facts to back up why a change is needed, a change that will benefit the herds (we are not interested in vapor and supposition, and all the emotion in the world doesn't cut it), then present the facts, and cite the science and make a case.

But you are making up your own numbers, while attempting to discredit the department in charge of this, saying you do not trust their numbers, but somehow if AR is increased, then the numbers you don't trust now will suddenly become trustworthy?

This is sickening. What biological benefits to the herds does a higher AR accomplish? The biologists already have stated that no benefit exists. Don't make up your numbers (75% of antlered bucks killed - HOGWASH) to support your argument. Present some facts. That is what we need to discuss - FACTS, not someone's whining because in reality your hunting grounds have gone through some natural succession and the deer have moved a mile or so over to better feeding grounds.

And to the notion that this is easy to change (directed at another post) - you obviously have never been on the front lines of the legislative process, especially NYS legislative process. Easy to say, but in practice its a mother! Policy is easy to shift. Laws are not.

The policy has shifted in NYS. Could it stand more tweaking? Probably. But introducig a new law, when no biological benefit exists, and we have a serious absence in the metrics and information needed to successfully set harvest goals (bucks and does) per Sq Mile, per WMU, because all the metrics have changed, without any benefit to the overall herd health and welfare, we end up screwing the pooch 100% of the time. PA screwed the pooch, and their own department is struggling to manage the herds properly (because they ain't got the tools and now their revenue is dropping like a lead balloon).

Is that what you desire? We alread have first hand understanding of screwed up management results. We're crying about it now. Your answer? Let's screw it up some more. Freaking brilliant.

[tsoc]

Doctorafc,.I don't believe I had directed any thing specifically to you previously.The 75% figure I used was a low figure based on numbers that I have heard repeatedly used by the DEC specifically Dick Henry previously the deer biologist for our region.It is estimated that 75% to 80% of the bucks harvested every year are 1 1/2 years old.I did not mention a total number I mentioned a percentage.SO 7.5 to 8 bucks out of every ten killed are 1 1/2 years old.Is that not targeting a specific age class for over harvest?Of course it is.
You have not rebuked or supported my contention about the natural order because you can't.The natural order is in the absence of hunting,not referencing market hunting conditions that led to near extinction.
I am not making any thing up as I go along,I have not fabricated any numbers.You took a percentage I used to support a contention I didn't make.
I know Dick Henry reasonably well if there are points that you would like me to pose to him I gladly will.

[tsoc]

I don't believe I insulted you!(maybe I did) Didn't mean to,didn't intend to.I made that comment to make a point.There are many folks (no I can't quantify it,just what has come up in many conversations,and materials that I have read)where the argument has been,"no one is going to tell me what I can kill or can't kill" "there are no bucks around now,you mean I would have to wait for one that was bigger".The discussion about being able to kill any buck with three inches of antler on it's head has nothing to do with the well being of the herd.The DEC has managed for quantity,for having hunters having the ability to see more bucks.There has not been enough concern for habitat,for carrying capacity etc.
Where I may have not expressed it in a way that you cared for,my point is that there is no basis for the way things are done now,other than thats the way it has always been done.

[tsoc]

To insult people is idiotic,you have proven nothing,shown nothing,refuted nothing.
You are in favor of keeping things the way they are.Please make available to me the information that you have referenced to come to your conclusion.I am a fairly bright person,I can read,I can listen,I can interperet.
All you are doing now is being antaganostic toward people who are sincere but have a different point of view.I don't expect you would call that gentleman a blithering idiot if he was in the same room as yourself,I doubt you would do it to me either.
For the most part everyone has expressed themselves with consideration for others.I would question your credibility when resorting to name calling.

[doctariAFC]

ORIGINAL: tsoc

Doctorafc,.I don't believe I had directed any thing specifically to you previously.The 75% figure I used was a low figure based on numbers that I have heard repeatedly used by the DEC specifically Dick Henry previously the deer biologist for our region.It is estimated that 75% to 80% of the bucks harvested every year are 1 1/2 years old.I did not mention a total number I mentioned a percentage.SO 7.5 to 8 bucks out of every ten killed are 1 1/2 years old.Is that not targeting a specific age class for over harvest?Of course it is.
You have not rebuked or supported my contention about the natural order because you can't.The natural order is in the absence of hunting,not referencing market hunting conditions that led to near extinction.
I am not making any thing up as I go along,I have not fabricated any numbers.You took a percentage I used to support a contention I didn't make.
I know Dick Henry reasonably well if there are points that you would like me to pose to him I gladly will.

Yes, please do pose the questions. 7.5 out of every 10 bucks harvested is not the same thing as 75% of antlered deer get killed. I see these numbers being butchered and presented to fit an agenda, when in reality, we have folks who pull the trigger on deer that they maybe should pass on, from someone else's book, but this may be the only opportunity at a harvest for that hunter all year long.

The reason why I am beating on you all so hard is that much of this is coming from an emotional, and personal desire. When numbers like this are presented, and presented in such a way to state that we are killing 75% of all the bucks in NYS (and this is what CNY Whitetails tried to do in their ppt presentation) each year, I will call that as misleading and downright falsifying what was actually reported, for the sake of furthering an agenda that has no biological merit in the first place.

I work with Tim Spierto, Jim Snyder before him. Conditions across WMU to WMU certainly vary, as does the state of development, too.But we're barking up the wrong tree. Let's also qualify the observation a little further (7.5 in 10 bucks are 1 1/2 yr olds) shall we? That is 7.5 in 10 that are checked into the check stations and checked by biologists. There's a small sampling happening at the deer processors, when time permits the ECOs and biologists to visit these places, but by no means is this every deer reported as harvested. We do not have that entry on our tag. Either mature or fawn, that's it.

If we based the harvest figures solely on that type of information, we'd really be screwed, as unless you're in the CWD containment zone, hunters bringing deer to checkpoints are falling like rain. As is, and sadly, the number of deer donated to the VDC at these checkpoints, too.

We ain't gonna solve dittily squat by increasing antler restriction in NYS. Indeed, we will hurt our management severely. The issue is not hunters taking young deer, or even taking two bucks. The issue is moreso inadvertent harvest of Button Bucks due to increased DMP issuance and poaching, either through group hunting practices (sharing tags), recycling tags or flat out road hunting. AR solves none of this. We are definitely barking up the wrong tree.