the people that support Alts Plan > How old are you? Have you ever hunted or lived in Texas,Iowa,Ill.,Kansas or canada?? or any other big buck state? I'm not totally against all of his plan. But it seems to me most the people that support him have never had to lease or pay 3000 dollars to hunt a deer. History repeats its self thats a fact. If Pa actually can build op a trophy bucke herd,Good I'm all for it.But dont complain when the outfitters start leasing up land for pay to hunt.It can happen.Texas cost up to 10 and 12 dollars a acre to hunt. Outfitters have leased over 30 % of ill. private land.The quality deer hunting will be on private land and the No Stategame lands will be even more crowded with huntrs and no deer. We all better go out and buy your own land to secure are future.Conspiracy Munbo Jumbo ,No look at the results of all them other trophy states. Please who among us hear has ever hunted a trophy state FREE in the past 5 years and actually killed a 150 plus deer??? For every action there is a reaction so get ready.Also who among us in the past 20 years seen a deer starve to death in Pa? Who amongst us spend any money feeding the deer over the winter? Hunting is not only take it is giving back also.
Cardeer: Me and the ole woman love this pass up a small buck stuff Alty is preaching. Makes shooting one that much easier for our 18 youngins. Heck 'tween welfare and young buck along with all the button bucks we can kill as a family ..we may make it thru another mild winter up here.
Got a big truck patch and the woman is canning up them veggies, looks like many a night of venison veggie stew ahaed for the Sneakums!
I will be 30 in January and I do support this plan. I would love to see bigger bucks running around but I do think this plan needs changes and hopefully this will change. Smaller management units, check stations, earn a buck programs, etc.
I do not have any experience outside of Pa, so I will pose some questions to you or anyone else here who can answer these.
1. What is the deer population like outside of the leased land in all these states???
2. What is the buck to do ratio??
3. Are there antler restricions in place??? statewide or smaller managed units??
4. What is the average size buck, antler and body weight???
5. Where the leased lands a result of QDM or where they in place before the QDM was successful (I am assuming QDM was successful in these states or this would not be a valid arguement)
One last thought about this. Leased land has it's own standards for QDM and how they manage deer herds, Wouldn't these lease companies have come in and offered the big bucks to buy the land already if they thought they could already be selling hunts and leased lands to the 1 million plus hunters in PA, or do they realize the hunting tradition in this state and know that it won't work???
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I'll be going on 50 soon. I've hunted whitetail in 7 different states and a couple more for other big game and a few more if you want to include waterfowl.
I agree with Alt's basic premise and in the next few years things are going to change even more with the changing of boundries of the different zones of management.
IMHO Alt is on the right track ,attempting to get the herd in the proper ratio. It is attitudes that have to be changed. The "chicken little" types that use emotions and thier unfounded facts as opinions lost the first round and from what I see will lose the next. You all heard the B.S. from them prior to the season last year. "it will be a slaughter", "all the does will be shot off and we ain't gonna have any deer", and the best one " it won't be safe in the woods with the brown and down crowd out there".
Well we know now last year was one of the safest we've had in Pa in many a year and not many more antlerless deer were taken than in previous years , but the taking of button bucks in that number was cut in half. It seems more hunters take thier hunting seriously and are responsible and take the intent and the laws in the spirit they are made.
Now for this up coming season if the majority does the same as last year we'll have better seasons to look forward to in the up coming years.
Access to huntable land is up to us. Looking the other way when we see poachers and slob hunters afield makes us all look bad. Get a license plate # or hunting tag # and turn the S.O.B.'s in.
Cardeer - I hear where you are coming from but do not agree.
Alt's plan is not to make PA a "Big Buck State" - Even if hunting was banned for a few years, the trophy potential (on a large scale like IL, KS, Iowa Etc.) is not there, because by and large, PA Does not have the soil, terrain, human population density, or agriculture to support a trophy management program.
Land leases in some of the Agriculture States are high - that is becuase huntable land (not just fields) are limited, much of the land is in crops, especially corn.
Try to get even $2.00/acre in an average PA tract right now, its not going to happen, Alt or no Alt. Its my feeling that the biologists in PA see "the handwriting on the wall", and realize, that for PA to have a future as far as deer hunting goes, change is neccessary, and the sooner the better.
Like it or not, this plan calls for 15-20 deer per square mile, on average. When I drive down RTE 81 in the winter, the habitat I see, would look to MAYBE be able to support 5 deer per square mile, in good health. Sometimes the road is lined with dozens, even hundreds of deer at times in the winter. Up to 30-35 deer per square mile at certain times of the year is a HUGE burden on the land, and wildlife.
Look at the reported deer take in PA, and divide it by the number of square miles - 486,014 (2001 total)/ 44,820 square miles of Pennsylvania are land areas = 10.84 deer harvested/square mile. Historically, PA has tried to harvest 40% of the herd/year, indicating that the average density in PA is currently over 22 deer/squre mile. I'd like to see a study on what the carrying capacity of PA lands are.
The 3 deer you've noted on the 225 acres you are scouting, is either an oddball situation, you've missed a few deer, or possibly a true Big Buck Haven, as mature deer will "seek out" this low social pressure type habitat, when available. Good luck with your new spot do not give up on it yet, I'd be suprised if there was not a wallhanger in your spot, he could be tough to hunt though.
I'm 33 and all for Alt's plan. If we think things were good before alt then we really have a problem here in PA. We could NOT have a more mismanaged deer herd then right here in PA. Alt is trying to right the wrong that has been done to PA's deer for many many many years. It takes time and effort to change peoples opinions about what is right for the deer will take the most effort. Its just unbelieveable to me that people still want to see 30 deer in a morning and not a buck in the bunch. This is what most of pa who is against Alts plan likes, and this is wrong when pertaining to a well balanced deer herd. But this is just my opinion
CD, I am in agreement with Alt`s plan. I think smaller DMU`s will come in time. Oh ya, I am 42 years old, I have hunted in Texas, Illinois, Canada, and many other states that you did not mention. I am not real familiar with the deer densities out in your end of PA, but I would think that by the amount of deer I see along the major roads out east that somehow the deer are sneaking around you when you are scouting. Do you have one of your necklaces on? If deer really are scarce out where you live, next year you send for tags in westmoreland, greene, or butler counties and I`ll come out and get ya! You can come on out my way and shoot `em up! I know it probably seems like Alt is not working on the DMU areas fast enough, but I can only imagine how much work he has put into this project.
I am serious about you coming out my way to hunt, you can stay right at the house, and I`ll take you to some good spots! It will cost you one of your famous necklaces though!
I quees I will never agree there to many deer. thats just me I quess.My point is why in the heck if the deer pop is to high and there overbrowsing the habitate,why dont the State do what other States do? They lease the game lands to farmers or plant crops instead of selling the trees to the timber pimps.
Now to answer some of POPs questions
1) First of all in Iowa which I'm most familiar with the past 4 years I see 40 to 60 deer a day with 15 buck as a average. That is in the north central part near osage Iowa. on rt 9 near the pot holes park.
2)Buck to doe ratio is not 1 to 1 in Iowa ,in texas maybe 2 to 1.
3)No antler restrictions In Iowa or Texas.Yes the management units are smaller in Texas and Iowa . IN TEXAS THE DOE ALLOCATIONS ARE SET BY THE AMOUNT OF PROPERTY YOU OWN. In my area it is 2 doe for every 50 acres
4 Iowa has huge deer,Texas in the muy grande area they are average size. I shot a doe 2 years ago in Iowa that went 256 lbs. The mass on the antlers are better then here for sure.
5) as far as QDM ,the land owner and individual hunter practice this,There is no State program. I think the big difference is the hunters in them states take more of a responsibilty themselves. They plant food plots , and only shoot mature animals. OK no one anserwed my three questions? 1) who shot a 150 plus buck in a big buck State free.
2)When is the last time you seen a starving deer in Pa
3)How much do you spend a year feeding the deer in the off season??
OK A trip to Iowa cost me around 1200.00 Texas 3500, Ill. 3000
I spend around 2000.00 a year feeding the deer in off season.If the 1 million hunters in pa. would do that a deer would never have a lack of food.I dont think there is a lack of food ,but if there is step up and feed them ,then when there fat eat them.
Cardeer that's omne thing I wish the game commission would do , make feeding big game illegal. We're not talking people who plant feed plots ,but one's who put out apples , store bought corn etc. In the long run it hurts wildlife and is a BIG part of the problem in many areas.
Cardeer, I hate to sound like I am going to argue with you, but, I am going to just bring up a point that is over-looked.
Comparring a Western State with Pennsylvania is like comparing apples and oranges.
Pennsylvania doesn't have the overall type of land to support a huge deer herd. Sure, some areas around do, but, as an over-all, there isn't the land to do it.
I think everyone on here would like to have their land like that in the Milk River Valley of Montana. I would LOVE to see 60-80 deer a day with 20-35 of them being bucks, but, it just isn't feasible for Pennsylvania.
I was reading some statistics on this. Pennsylvania is 32nd out of all states in land size, but yet, our deer population is 3rd in the nation. Only Texas and Wisconsin have more deer than us. Does anyone else see the problem with this? Too many deer, not enough land.
Balancing the herd is what it is all about. Too many people think that it is strictly about growing monster bucks. Alot of wrongs have been done in the way of management, and Alt is TRYING to fix them as best as he can.
Like I have said, you have some great points Cardeer. Smaller DMU's would be a great thing to have, but, they are comming, sooner or later. Also, I would like to see Pennsylvania like Canada or Texas, where there ISN'T a need for antler restrictions, but, there is a huge difference in attitudes between the hunters there and here. Hunters out there wouldn't be proud of killing a spike when there are 140" monsters walking around, but here, hunters are proud of killing a buck, any buck. Heck, I have heard hunters bragging about shooting spikes and there comments go something like this "I was out hunting for a doe or a buck, well, this little spike came in with a doe. When they stopped, I put the crosshairs on him and got a great shot" This is the type of attitude that has damaged the herd. Too few people are willing to pass up small bucks and take does instead.
Alot of people on here are going to judge the whole population of hunters by what they are like. The fact is that the PA hunters on here are more determined and know more about QDM than the average Pa hunter. The average Pa hunter goes out one or two days a season, they don't think that a mature doe is better than a yearling buck, so, they shoot the yearling buck. This is where the problems start.....
I would like to Know> Please
