Hunting gun groups...

[Doe Dumper]

I know folks throw the sub-moa thing around a lot. But what i wonder is how many folks actually have guns that they actually hunt with that will shoot a 5 shot group at a 100yds into sub-moa groups especially with factory ammo. I tend to think these guns are far more rare than folks let on. What say you guys? I have a couple that will come very close but several more that really arent that close to it. Thanks in advance..this should make an interesting discussion.

[oldelkhunter]

Sub MOA groups have really increased since the internet has been around that is for sure. I own one that will shoot that well with factory ammo 300 wsm vanguard. My 7 rem mag may shoot 3 under an inch depending on condition of the shooter that day. Hopefully the new number 3 will do better with handloads. I would say the average is 1 1/2 which is plenty good for everything except long range groundhogs or prairie dogs.

[Solitary Man]

Don't know about factory ammo 'cause I haven't used any in quite a while in my hunting rifles. But with handloads I've got a couple of Sakos that easily qualify.

[Virginia7]

Sub MOA groups have really increased since the internet has been around.....

Ain't that the truth! All three of my current big game rifles will occasionaly do
sub-moa, if my wiggles compensate for my wobbles, etc. However, a once in a while sub-moa group does not a sub-moa rifle make. On average I'd say my groups go about
1-1/4" to 1-1/2" for 4 or 5 shot groups, with factory ammo as I no longer handload. I'd say that's dang good accuracy for out of the box rifles. Folks should be happy if their rifle, out of the box, gives them 1-1/2" (+/-) groups for 5shots.
What's better, take a target and shoot a group one day, save the target, then shoot a group a week or two later with the original target set behind the new one. Keep doing this for a month or two, every couple weeks. If your rifle keeps them in a group of
2" or less on the orig. target over time, you've got a gem - hang onto it! That sort of accuracy & consistency is rare. I'm lucky in that I've found one to do it, and shoots several different factory loads to the same POI.
I think the majority of sub-moa claims are done with rifles that have been modified some. Maybe some bedding work, triggers lightened, barrels re-crowned, use of handloaded ammo, etc. I've only had one that consistently shot sub-moa out of the box, and it gave me approx. 1/2" to 3/4" groups with factory ammo it liked. The rifle was a Rem. 788 with 18-1/2" barrel, Tasco 3-9x scope, 243Win., using Fed. Premium 85gr.HPBT. Like a nut, I eventually coveted something else, and traded it off - at the time, much to the delight of the local prairie dog population, I'm sure

[drfatguy]

I think we are enamoured with groups way too much. We group off a bench but how well do they shoot under field conditions? I practice off-hand and sitting with and without shooting sticks. I rarely group my ammo. I am more concerned with practice which prepares me for field shooting than the groups off a bench I can get. I don't have any in my wallet that have been laminated to show off. I don't hunt prarie dogs enough to worry about. 1" groups will handle coyotes and 1.5"-2", even though we don't want to admit it, will handle big game at the ranges most shoot. The small groups are necessary if one is going to hunt at extreme ranges. This is very specialized and I wouldn't enjoy it. I like sneaking.

Dr Fatguy

[Superpig]

I think for a stock factory rifle in a hunting class model 5 shot MOA groups are few and far between. There are alot of rifles that will shoot 3 shot MOA groups but 5 is a different story. I handload for all of my guns which in hunting weight rifles not varmint rigs consist of a 280, 25-06, & 257 Roberts. The 280 has been rebarreled with a cheap Douglas but it will group 120 & 140 gr. Bt's under 3/4" for 5 shots. The other two are factory stock except for lightening the triggers. Both will group under and inch with 115 gr BT's for 3 shots, but going to 5 opens the groups to over an inch. All the rifles are fed handloads and not factory so I don't know what they will do with even premium factory stuff.

[Superpig]

A note I forgot to add was that if you buy a factory hunting weight rifle that will group under an 1.5" for 5 shots with factory ammo buy all the ammo with that same lot # that you can afford and sleep with the rifle at night. Cuddling and kissing it occassionally. Those kind of rifles are probably 1 in 1000 or more.

[Soilarch]

my old 700bdl (wood, all factory) will throw bullets right at an inch all day long with an occasional flyer on a calm day.....but its a 22-250

Oh, absolutely, submoa shooters are hard to find with factory ammo. But this is a "guns" page, and not a hunting page, so talking about it and striving for it is ok in my book. Now for hunting, I got a sluggun that is a 2.5MOA shooter, a 7400 that is a 1.7MOA shooter, and a medallion that is a 1.2MOA shooter. These are the guns I used the most. But this is a hunting issue, not a guns issue. For going to the range, I got a 300RUM that is a true .75MOA shooter, and a sako 75 that is a .9MOA shooter.

[CZ2506]

ORIGINAL: Superpig

I think for a stock factory rifle in a hunting class model 5 shot MOA groups are few and far between. There are alot of rifles that will shoot 3 shot MOA groups but 5 is a different story. I handload for all of my guns which in hunting weight rifles not varmint rigs consist of a 280, 25-06, & 257 Roberts. The 280 has been rebarreled with a cheap Douglas but it will group 120 & 140 gr. Bt's under 3/4" for 5 shots. The other two are factory stock except for lightening the triggers. Both will group under and inch with 115 gr BT's for 3 shots, but going to 5 opens the groups to over an inch. All the rifles are fed handloads and not factory so I don't know what they will do with even premium factory stuff.

I agree with you SP. My A-Bolt composite stalker in 25-06 has a 22" barrel, so it's certainly qualifies as a hunting rifle. With 100 gr. Nosler ballistic tips and Hodgedon 450 ball powder I can often keep 3 under an inch at 100 yds. But keeping all 5 in is tough. I think it's because if I get the first 3, my heart rate goes up in anticipation.