Primitive weapon
11-29-2016, 08:25 AM
#1
Fork Horn
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: MS
Posts: 343
Primitive weapon
Here in MS, there is a gun season and a primitive weapon season. A primitive weapon is pretty much another option from using a muzzleloader. Here are the regulations for a primitive weapon to be qualified:
Primitive Weapons
Weapons legal for use during the Primitive Weapons season are all archery equipment and primitive firearms."Primitive firearms," for the purpose of hunting deer, are defined as single or double-barreled muzzleloading rifles of at least .38 caliber; OR single shot, breech loading, metallic cartridge rifles (.35 caliber or larger) and replicas, reproductions, or reproductions of those type rifles with an exposed hammer; OR single or double-barreled muzzleloading shotguns, with single ball or slug. All muzzleloading primitive firearms must use black powder or a black powder substitute with percussion caps, #209 shotgun primers, or flintlock ignition. "Blackpowder substitute" is defined as a substance designed, manufactured, and specifically intended to be used as a propellant in muzzleloading or other black powder firearms, excluding modern smokeless powder. Metallic cartridges may be loaded with either black powder or modern smokeless powder (cartridges purchased at sporting goods stores). Telescopic sights are allowed while hunting with any primitive firearm during the primitive weapon seasons. During any open season on deer with primitive weapons after November 30, a person may use any legal weapon of choice on private lands only, if the person is the title owner of the land, the lessee of the hunting rights on the land, a member of a hunting club leasing the hunting rights on the land, or a guest of a person specified above. If the person is required to have a hunting license, the person must have a primitive weapon license, Sportsman'sLicense, or a Lifetime Sportsman's License
I know of the 35 whelen, 444 & 45-70. I'm in the market to buy a primitive weapon, but I want to know all the options I have before buying one of those three. I'm not very familiar with muzzleloaders or primitive weapons. What other calibers are out there that would qualify as a primitive weapon in MS? How's the accuracy of that caliber from short range to long range? How much kick does that caliber put out when shot?
Primitive Weapons
Weapons legal for use during the Primitive Weapons season are all archery equipment and primitive firearms."Primitive firearms," for the purpose of hunting deer, are defined as single or double-barreled muzzleloading rifles of at least .38 caliber; OR single shot, breech loading, metallic cartridge rifles (.35 caliber or larger) and replicas, reproductions, or reproductions of those type rifles with an exposed hammer; OR single or double-barreled muzzleloading shotguns, with single ball or slug. All muzzleloading primitive firearms must use black powder or a black powder substitute with percussion caps, #209 shotgun primers, or flintlock ignition. "Blackpowder substitute" is defined as a substance designed, manufactured, and specifically intended to be used as a propellant in muzzleloading or other black powder firearms, excluding modern smokeless powder. Metallic cartridges may be loaded with either black powder or modern smokeless powder (cartridges purchased at sporting goods stores). Telescopic sights are allowed while hunting with any primitive firearm during the primitive weapon seasons. During any open season on deer with primitive weapons after November 30, a person may use any legal weapon of choice on private lands only, if the person is the title owner of the land, the lessee of the hunting rights on the land, a member of a hunting club leasing the hunting rights on the land, or a guest of a person specified above. If the person is required to have a hunting license, the person must have a primitive weapon license, Sportsman'sLicense, or a Lifetime Sportsman's License
I know of the 35 whelen, 444 & 45-70. I'm in the market to buy a primitive weapon, but I want to know all the options I have before buying one of those three. I'm not very familiar with muzzleloaders or primitive weapons. What other calibers are out there that would qualify as a primitive weapon in MS? How's the accuracy of that caliber from short range to long range? How much kick does that caliber put out when shot?
11-29-2016, 03:55 PM
#2
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Kansas
Posts: 3,905
In reading that, it looks like only single shot, breech loading, hammer fired rifles chambered for 35cal and larger can be used in metallic cartridges. I don't read that to explicitly say a modern version like the T/C Encore or H&R/NEF Handi-rifle would not qualify, but the replica and reproduction language might be meant to imply modern designs are not approved. The H&R Buffalo Classic is not a true replica of anything, but I would venture the state would not realize the difference, nor would they really be able to enforce it based on your copied text. Trapdoor rifles would be legal, for sure.
Single shot break action rifles are often very light, and large case, heavy caliber cartridges exhibit a lot of recoil energy. For example, I know my pet 44mag load in a naked Marlin lever action 1894 actually exhibits more recoil energy than my Ruger M77 MKII .30-06. Similarly, muzzle stuffing punkin chuckers also tend to exhibit substantial recoil. Nothing unmanageable for most shooters, but unpleasant for sure.
Trajectory management with low velocity cartridges is always a hot topic. My pet .45-70 load has as much drop at 250yrds as my .300win mag at 500yrds. It's not impossible to shoot these cartridges at long ranges, but it's also far more difficult to do so than for modern high velocity cartridges.
I'm not certain a .35 Whelen would qualify at all - unless the literal interpretation allowance DOES include modern hammer fired break action single shot hammer guns like the Handi-rifle and Encore. If they do, then the Whelen is quite likely one of the best choices compared to many other 35 and larger caliber cartridges.
Best info is going to come straight from the horses mouth - call up MS DNR and ask what models are legal. I have a very hard time believing a T/C Encore in .35 Whelen would be legal during a "primative weapons season."
Single shot break action rifles are often very light, and large case, heavy caliber cartridges exhibit a lot of recoil energy. For example, I know my pet 44mag load in a naked Marlin lever action 1894 actually exhibits more recoil energy than my Ruger M77 MKII .30-06. Similarly, muzzle stuffing punkin chuckers also tend to exhibit substantial recoil. Nothing unmanageable for most shooters, but unpleasant for sure.
Trajectory management with low velocity cartridges is always a hot topic. My pet .45-70 load has as much drop at 250yrds as my .300win mag at 500yrds. It's not impossible to shoot these cartridges at long ranges, but it's also far more difficult to do so than for modern high velocity cartridges.
I'm not certain a .35 Whelen would qualify at all - unless the literal interpretation allowance DOES include modern hammer fired break action single shot hammer guns like the Handi-rifle and Encore. If they do, then the Whelen is quite likely one of the best choices compared to many other 35 and larger caliber cartridges.
Best info is going to come straight from the horses mouth - call up MS DNR and ask what models are legal. I have a very hard time believing a T/C Encore in .35 Whelen would be legal during a "primative weapons season."
11-30-2016, 06:06 AM
#3
Fork Horn
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: MS
Posts: 343
I'm not certain a .35 Whelen would qualify at all - unless the literal interpretation allowance DOES include modern hammer fired break action single shot hammer guns like the Handi-rifle and Encore. If they do, then the Whelen is quite likely one of the best choices compared to many other 35 and larger caliber cartridges.
11-30-2016, 07:29 AM
#4
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,695
It's not the caliber or cartridge that is the "primitive" qualifier. The caliber qualifier is anything of the .350 diameter or above. What they are deeming "primitive" is the firearm action. And from your description they are VERY loose on that description. IF, as NoMercy stated, a modern break open action is allowed, then a TC or a Handy Rifle break open action would be an excellent choice in any cartridge with a bullet .350 or above. .35 Rem, .35 Whe, .358 Win and then you have a couple of magnum .35's such as the .350 RM and the .358 Norma Mag. Then you have an oldie but a goodie for whitetail and black bear, the .375 Win. I love that little bugger and have a couple of lever guns in that. Flat knocks the deer off their feet and not a whole heck of a lot of recoil either. There are many many cartridge choices out there with .350 and above bullet size. And you can get a barrel for just about all of them in a TC Encore type rifle.
11-30-2016, 09:56 AM
#5
Fork Horn
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: MS
Posts: 343
It's not the caliber or cartridge that is the "primitive" qualifier. The caliber qualifier is anything of the .350 diameter or above. What they are deeming "primitive" is the firearm action. And from your description they are VERY loose on that description. IF, as NoMercy stated, a modern break open action is allowed, then a TC or a Handy Rifle break open action would be an excellent choice in any cartridge with a bullet .350 or above. .35 Rem, .35 Whe, .358 Win and then you have a couple of magnum .35's such as the .350 RM and the .358 Norma Mag. Then you have an oldie but a goodie for whitetail and black bear, the .375 Win. I love that little bugger and have a couple of lever guns in that. Flat knocks the deer off their feet and not a whole heck of a lot of recoil either. There are many many cartridge choices out there with .350 and above bullet size. And you can get a barrel for just about all of them in a TC Encore type rifle.
11-30-2016, 10:46 AM
#6
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,695
The .358Win is a necked up .308 cartridge while the .375Win is a straight walled cartridge based off the old .38-55. Both have approximately the same range capabilities as they are both designed primarily around and for lever guns so their range is around 100-200 respectively. They both hit hard and, to me anyway, neither have a lot of felt recoil. You know you shot them don't get me wrong, but they won't cause little birdies floating around your head after every shot. Both cartridges have the hard to come by problem when shopping for ammo but they both lend themselves very well to a reloader.
In my opinion, the .35Whe and the .45/70 neither one have a bad recoil to them. I mean you know you shot the things but the main thing with those 2 cartridges is the weight of the rifle. Sure, if you hot load a .45/70 with 300gr bullets and a wopper charge it's going to ring your bell out of a little 6.5- 7 pound lever gun. ESPECIALLY from a bench position! Same goes for the .35Whe except it has a fairly significant recoil in about any rifle but you just have to shoulder it properly and learn to roll with the recoil. It has more of a hard shove than the sharp fast impulse of say a .300 Win Mag.
My thoughts on your situation would be to find you a good inline muzzleloader. ESPECIALLY if you aren't a reloader. They are fun, easy to learn, and practice bullets are cheap. Yes cleanup and such is a bit more involved but there are ML rifles out there now VERY capable of 200 yard and further clean kills. Visit our BP section here on HNI and have a chat with those of us on there. You may find yourself getting bitten by the muzzle stuffer bug!
In my opinion, the .35Whe and the .45/70 neither one have a bad recoil to them. I mean you know you shot the things but the main thing with those 2 cartridges is the weight of the rifle. Sure, if you hot load a .45/70 with 300gr bullets and a wopper charge it's going to ring your bell out of a little 6.5- 7 pound lever gun. ESPECIALLY from a bench position! Same goes for the .35Whe except it has a fairly significant recoil in about any rifle but you just have to shoulder it properly and learn to roll with the recoil. It has more of a hard shove than the sharp fast impulse of say a .300 Win Mag.
My thoughts on your situation would be to find you a good inline muzzleloader. ESPECIALLY if you aren't a reloader. They are fun, easy to learn, and practice bullets are cheap. Yes cleanup and such is a bit more involved but there are ML rifles out there now VERY capable of 200 yard and further clean kills. Visit our BP section here on HNI and have a chat with those of us on there. You may find yourself getting bitten by the muzzle stuffer bug!
