Thank you for your quick and thoughtful response. I appreciate your flame-free post, which shed light on the topic, not heat.
You wrote: "I think you are seeing a problem where there isn't one." That very well could be; right now I have more questions than I have answers. So, in my posts, I may ask some questions for which the answers may seem very apparent to you. I guess they are not apparent to me.
One point you made which was especially good was about sight radii and using a scope: " . . . sight radius . . . would change as well if you used . . . a scope (Y)ou would have to mount it way forward of the reciever". I had not thought of that at all. So, I would face the same "problems" if I used a scope on a "regular" rifle or a bullpup rifle:
1. I would need to know where to mount it (close to the eye, or far
away, like the long-relief sight used on the Steyr Scout Rifle)
2. I would have to sight the weapon in
Am I reading you?
I think you have raised a key point when you wrote: " . . . national defense has nothing to do with hunting. There are combat weapons, and there are hunting weapons."
Some people disagree with you, like the text on the Remington Law Enforcement Website: "The heart of Remington’s law enforcement rifles is the legendary Model 700 action. This is the same action that is at the core of the advanced M-24 Sniper Weapon System we built for the U.S. Army" (http://www.remingtonle.com/rifle/rifle.htm
). Yes, this text is advertising fluff, but it seems that, at some point, (besides the obvious point that they are both using GUNS, duh! :-) hunting and warfare do cross paths. This crosspoint in the two paths of hunting and warfare is where my questions lie.
It seems (to this layman) that hunting and warfare have three things in common:
1. Aim the weapon quickly and easily at the right target
2. Put the bullet exactly where you intend it to go
3. Do it every time
As evidence for these three points, I quote from the Remington 40XB Tactical Website which says: "Performance: 1/2" or less group with proper ammo at 100 yards*** Factory test target included demonstrating (accuracy -Ed.)" The Remington 40-XB page says that the "40-XB ™ rifles (are) so accurate and rock-solid dependable."
You wrote, "the weight would stay the same or more than likely you would gain a little because of the configuration." Here are some figures I have gleaned from various Web sites about lengths and weights of various caliber .223 rifles, both "conventional" and bullpup:
Manufacturer Model Overall Barrel Weight
Model 700 VS LH 45 3/4" 26" 9 lb.
Model 700 VLS 45 1/2" 26" 9 3/8 lb.
Model 700 VS SF 45 3/4" 26" 8 1/2 lb.
Model Seven LS 39 1/4" 20" 6 1/2 lb.
Model Seven SS 39 1/4" 20" 6 1/4 lb.
Tavor 2 STAR 28.34" 18.11" 2800 grams
AUG A1 31" 20" 7.94 lb.
AUG/HBAR-T 35" 24" 7.94 lb.
with telescopic sights)
FA MAS 30.28" 19.5" 8.0 lb.
It seems that, when we compare the bullpup weapons to the conventional stock weapons, the bullpups split the difference in weight, but are significantly shorter, while having roughly the same barrel length. The questions then would be: because of the design, is the weight distributed differently, so that bullpup designs are easier to sight and to shoot accurately? Then, do the bullpup weapons shown here in this table have the same accuracy as the conventional weapons in the table? Why or why not?
Like all good writers, you save your best point for last: "(y)ou are looking at some serious money to set up a rifle that I doubt would function the way you expect it to."
You are 100 percent correct on this point. I, a layman, have no resources like a Col. Jeff Cooper or a Willy Bubits (both Steyr), to turn my ballistic dreams into reality. That is why I turn to this forum. I ask questions of you all, so that your collective wisdom can be brought to bear on my questons.
So, I ask, since several nations have invested millions (billions?) of dollars in combat bullpup weapons that are accurate and dependable, can we hunters not learn some lessons that these governments have so expensively earned the answers to?
Leslie Nordman :-)
Edited by - Leslie Nordman on 12/15/2002 15:29:04
Edited by - Leslie Nordman on 12/15/2002 22:47:55